Kathy Kelly Coordinator for Voices for Creative Nonviolence

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 US Wants Control of Afghanistan’s Resources

 28 January, 2014 20:05     Download audio file

The amount of money that the US Government has poured into Afghanistan on non-military aid is approaching $100 billion yet children are starving and the country is completely decimated. The US agencies that are supposed to implement development projects are completely incapable of carrying out their missions due to corruption and a complete lack of oversight. In an interview with the Voice of Russia’s John Robles three time Nobel Peace Prize nominee Kathy Kelly, who recently completed her twelfth stay in Afghanistan said she would not recommend that US agencies that are supposed to be involved in development work be given the authority or the funds to provide assistance because their abysmal track records. Ms. Kelly believes the reason the US wants to maintain a militarily presence in Afghanistan may be a US interest in controlling the pricing and flow of precious resources found in Afghanistan. When asked whether opium was one of these resources Ms. Kelly agreed that at this point that appears to be true.

This is John Robles. You are listening to part 1 of an interview with Kathy Kelly, the coordinator for Voices for Creative Nonviolence. She is also a three-time Nobel Peace Prize nominee. This is part 1 of an interview in progress.

Robles: Hello! How are you this evening?

Kelly: I’m good, thank you.

Robles: It is a pleasure to be speaking with you. I understand you’ve just returned from Afghanistan and I was wondering if you could tell us about your trip and what is going on with your fight against the drones.

Kelly: Thank you. I returned from Afghanistan about four days ago after having spent a month living in a working class neighborhood in Kabul as a guest of a group called the Afghan Peace Volunteers.

I think this was the twelfth time that I’ve been a guest of these young people. It is a privilege really to be with them. They are young people who want to live together inter-ethnically, they come from Hazara and Pashto and Tajik backgrounds and they share together also a good deal of altruism and had initiated projects that try to be of service to people who are extremely needy.

Of course there are many in Kabul special those who are living in refugee camps in the very cold winter time and mothers who are not able to see their children because they don’t have enough income to get anything more than stale bread and tea without sugar.

So a project has been devised in which people from the US and the UK and Australia have donated funds so that women can be paid a meager wage to manufacture very heavy blankets, wool-stuffed coverlets. And then those are given free of charge to people living in refugee camps and to widows, orphans and to several other institutions, they serve people who are pretty desperate.

So I’m able to watch that project unfolding and also be with the young people who have another project which welcomes street children.

There are 600,000 street children working as venders in various places across Afghanistan and many of them are in Kabul, and many of them are children of families who have been displaced by war and violence.

Amnesty International reported in 2012 that the war and violence displaces 400 people every single day. You can imagine living in already overcrowded cities that lack infrastructure to support them, people end up in these refugee camps and they don’t have enough food or water; generally men in the families cannot find work, maybe occasional jobs as porters at a construction side. But often the families resort to send their children out to work as street vendors. And the children can then become prey really to various kinds of criminal gangs. So this is a terrible situation for children.

The Afghan Peace Volunteers have welcomed 20 young children to stop working as street vendors and get ready to enroll themselves in school and they’ve also supplied them with boots and warm clothing and welcomed to come and get some tutoring, a kind of remedial preparation, so that they can eventually go to school.

During the winter months schools are closed down in Afghanistan because there is no way to heat the buildings, and it were just to be too cold to keep children in unheated schools all day long. But spring will come and then these kids, I hope, will be enrolled in schools.

This is a tiny effort in face of the need for as I mentioned 600,000 children under these conditions. It is a good project and I’m glad I had a chance to witness that as well.

Robles: I see. I’d like to ask you a very hard question now. Don’t you think it is a responsibility of the governments that have decimated Afghanistan and I’m talking about the US and its NATO allies? Don’t you think it is part of their responsibility to be helping the people of Afghanistan after they have pretty much destroyed their country?

Kelly: Well, I don’t want to recommend that US agencies that have been involved in development work so far be interested with either the authority or the funds, provide that kind of assistance because their track record has been abysmal.

You know, the Special Inspector General’s report on Afghanistan comes out every year and every year it chronicles and details tremendous corruption, shoddy workmanship, unfinished projects, and ways in which these developments funds have been squandered.

The most recent report this year is no different. And there is a graph in the most recent report which shows that the amount of the US development aid since 2001, non-military aid, is approaching $100 billion, but of that sum of money in all those years only $3 billion was ever spent in humanitarian aid, the other $97 billion was distributed for counter narcotics and governance and what they had called, I’m sorry I’m blanking on the other two things, but the humanitarian aid was only $3 billion.

And so I think the US should pay reparations unquestionably. Money should be invested to groups that have had some track record of being able to engage in development without corruption and without so much inability to complete projects.

Robles: I see, couple of thing before you move on. What you just said was very telling, very damming I think. So you are basically telling me that it is not a matter of that the US has no responsibility, you are saying that even the agencies that should be responsible for implementing development projects can’t be trusted? You said their records are abysmal.

You talked just a minute ago about $97 billion that have gone to counter narcotics and other operations and the level of opium growth in production in Afghanistan has risen 40 fold. And I’ve written on this, that is about the only success of the US-NATO military operation in Afghanistan for almost 13 years.

I think that is worse than abysmal, that is criminal. But if you could comment on development and why you think the opium trade has gone up and why you think the development agencies aren’t to be trusted other than corruption. I mean, is there any way to fix all this?

Kelly: I think that many of the provinces in Afghanistan being governed by very corrupt leaders some of whom are drug lords and some of whom are war lords and some of whom might be both. And I’m sure it is quite difficult for farmers who stand up to people who were saying: ‘We want you to plant opium’.

If they were to say: ’No, we’d rather plant another crop’. Well, then how are they going to have incentives to plant other crops when even the World Bank Report will indicate that growing the opium means that the farmer will have some assurance that people that are selling the opium and transporting the opium will provide them with seeds and tools and transport of the harvest eventually. it is difficult for farmers to say: ‘No, we don’t want to go along with’.

It is certainly a difficult crop to harvest from everything I understand and it requires labor intensive. It seems now that 93% of the world’s opium is coming from Afghanistan. And it is also I think worth noting that they transport of these crops most likely through truck convoys.

And even though the US is engaging in so much drone surveillance of Afghanistan 24 hours a day 7 days a week, it seems that there is almost no evidence that anybody collects about the transport of this opium from Afghanistan across borders by truck and then to other countries.

Robles: I’ve seen pictures and I don’t know if you can verify this, I’ve seen pictures and exposés of pictures of US troops guarding opium fields. Can you comment on that?

Kelly: No, I’m afraid I cannot comment on that. But I think it is also important to note that many of the roads that are used by the US military in order to deliver supplies to bases all across Afghanistan are controlled by drug lords and sometimes war lords or both and they don’t allow free passage along those roads.

The US just has to pay more or less a toll for the trucks in these convoys that go along those roads. And even in the New York Review Books a writer noted recently that these tolls that are paid are very likely ending up lining the pockets of some of the most corrupt people including possible Pakistani and Afghan Taliban leaders who control these roads.

We have to ask ourselves how can it be that it has been costing $2 billion per a week for the US military to maintain its presence in Afghanistan. And at least this past year they were saying that the price per soldier for one year would be $2.1 million.

Previously it was $1 million per year but amount of money required to keep one soldier in Afghanistan for one year went up because of so much money being spent on bringing supplies and equipment home to the US and to getting it out of the Afghanistan.

Robles: You are telling me that these poor soldiers – $2.1 million a year they must be driving Ferrari tanks and eating caviar? What is that? Are they wearing silk uniforms or something? What is going on?

Kelly: Again I want to emphasize that tolls are being paid for every truck that passes along the roadway. And then also there is a plenty of evidence of projects that the US military has undertaken which they then had to spend a lot of money to dismantle.

For example, mine resistant anti-personnel carriers were purchased and the US discovered that they were not mine resistant, they didn’t work very well. And they don’t want to bring those back to the US and they didn’t want to leave them for people in Afghanistan. And so they decided to turn all of them into scrap metal. Just that project alone cost $7 billion.

Recently in the province of Kandahar a big military facility was built that cost $345 million and then they decided that they didn’t really want this big building. So they are going to have to spend huge amount of money to destroy it. Just knock it all down.

These kinds of instances of ways and spending huge amounts of money in a country where right now the estimate is said 1 million children in the south are suffering from severe acute malnourishment really makes you wonder what in the world are the US people doing?

And every time there is an aerial bombardment or a night raid or some kind of a drone attack against people of Afghanistan it seems likely to exacerbate and prolong the war. Because when people are killed they have likely got relatives and friends who will then pledge themselves to engage in some kind of retaliation.

Robles: Millions of children are starving to death, millions of innocents being killed, lives destroyed, $97 billion to fight narcotics but it’s gone up 40 fold, you said 93% of the world’s opium is now coming out of Afghanistan. I think before the war started it was something like in the single digits if I’m correct – 7%-8% or 9% was coming out of Afghanistan 12 years ago. You told me about $345 million projects that were then just destroyed. What is the leadership thinking? Are they thinking anything? I mean, who are these people?

Kelly: Well, I think we should ask ourselves why the US wants to stay in Afghanistan and maintain a military presence in Afghanistan?

If a bilateral security agreement is signed it will allow for 9 major military bases, 3 airfields and the presence of some number of troops, I’m not sure how many, but the Joint Special Operations Forces (JSOC) would be a major contingent of US remaining troop presence. And these are some of the most highly trained professional warriors in the world: Navy Seals, Green Berets, Army Rangers and the other ones that have become very proficient in the night raids and calling in aerial bombardments and possible drone attacks.

Why does the US want to maintain this militarily presence? I think we should at least be asking about a US interest in controlling the pricing in the flow of some very precious resources found in Afghanistan.

Around the Caspian Sea base there are natural gas and fossil fuel deposits and under the Hindu Kush mountains where rare earth elements that are extremely valuable, they are the kinds of elements that are used in a manufacture of cell phones and computers and also iron ore and copper.

The US may not want China for instance to have access to these resources at cheaper rates than what the US might have to spend.

So I think the control over the pricing in the flow and the extraction of resources could be a reason why the US has spent all these years and so much money and resources to prolong the war in Afghanistan.

Robles: Opium is the recourse, isn’t it? I mean it is the biggest recourse, it is the biggest money maker coming out of Afghanistan.

Kelly: I should imagine at this point that is true.

This is John Robles. You were listening to part 1 of an interview with Kathy Kelly. She is the coordinator for Voices for Creative Nonviolence. Thanks for listening and we wish you the best wherever you may be.

 

A Humanitarian War is an Oxymoron' - Part One

'A 'humanitarian war' is an oxymoron' - exclusive interview with Kathy Kelly

22 February, 09:47    Download audio file

One hundred billion dollars has been spent on Afghan reconstruction by the United States, yet nothing has improved for the Afghan people. Two billion dollars a week has been spent for over a decade to fight 55 Al-Qaeda operatives. The US continues to slaughter civilians on a regular basis, yet Hamid Karzai has done nothing. Nobel Peace Prize winner Barack Obama says he will "... get the heart of Al-Qaeda", yet few people in Afghanistan know anything about Al-Qaeda, and yes, the U.S. did torture people in Afghanistan. After close to a dozen extended trips to Afghanistan, 3 time Nobel Peace Prize nominee, Kathy Kelly, the co-cordinator for Voices for Creative Nonviolence spoke to the VOR's John Robles about all of the above and more, painting a horrendously grim picture of the U.S. "success" in Afghanistan.

Robles: You’ve been to Afghanistan almost a dozen times, right? How has life changed for the common Afghan people?

Kelly: One of the main changes I think is that the corruption has gone viral. You know, the SIGAR (Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction) report, the special investigative report on Afghan reconstruction was issued and it said that the amount of money the United States has spent on development aid now approaches $100 billion.

But $100 billion has not gone into repairing the infrastructure or enabling healthcare delivery, or improving education, not by a long shot which just brings about a tremendous weariness, because people can’t get their basic needs met and the economy isn’t functioning properly at all.

Many people lay blame for that on the United States for not having had any shred of wisdom about how to help form an entrepreneurial class that could give people a stake in their economy. And of course $2 billion was spent every single week on maintaining the United States military, while starvation, disease and unemployment were on the rise.

Robles: How has the US managed, or how have they attempted to sell their occupation of Afghanistan to the Afghan people?

Kelly: The United States Government has become adept at selling their wars, marketing their wars to the US public as “humanitarian wars”. Now, that’s an oxymoron. How could there be a humanitarian war? But they try to make it sound as if the US has been protecting and looking after women and children, protecting them from the Taliban, looking after their needs.

And both of those statements just simply don’t pan out when you look at statistics and when you talk with everyday ordinary people.

One out of every eleven Afghan women dies in childbirth – that’s a torturous way to die. One out of five children doesn’t make it beyond their fifth birthday. In places like Bamyan, a relatively peaceful province, the only hours when you can get any electricity at all are between 1 and 3 in the morning.

Afghanistan is a country that has an alarming rate of acute malnutrition according to the United Nations, particularly in the south, and they say one million children suffer from acute malnutrition.

There are 400 new refugees every day driven into the Afghan cities by the war. And you can see sprawling camps where people in the snow during this harsh cold are living in lean-tos and poorly constructed tents. So, the idea that somehow the United States is engaged in something humanitarian is just outlandish.

Robles: Ok, I understand that and I understand all of the propaganda in the West, but what kind of propaganda do they feed the “Afghan people” to get them to somehow accept the occupation?

Kelly: One of the most fearsome intelligence secret police agencies in the world is the NDS, the National Directorate of Security. And we should also note that the latest UNAMA (United Nations Assistance Mission to Afghanistan) report said that over half of the Afghan people in jail were tortured. So, no one wants to be identified as someone who in any way is subverting the Government’s aims.

And President Hamid Karzai will try to appease and mollify the public after, say ten civilians are killed, which just happened the night of Obama’s State of the Union Address. A United States aerial attack killed ten people, there were four little girls and a little boy and five women, and one man and they were all civilians. And this sort of thing happens again and again and again, and then President Hamid Karzai will say: “Well, I won’t tolerate this and the United States has to stop this and this is unacceptable.”

And it just seems as though he issues these statements to try to appease public anger. You know, sometimes people are burning effigies of US leaders. But he hasn’t been able to stop the United States from engaging in the despicable night raids and in drone bombardments.

People are very afraid to speak up and with a good reason, because the Afghan secret police could do them grievous-grievous harm.

Reminder

Robles: Who is doing all that torturing, in your opinion?

Kelly: Sometimes the United States will put people in prison and then turn them over to the Afghan authorities. And if the United States hadn’t imprisoned them in the first place, and sometimes they are held without charge for months, then they wouldn’t have been vulnerable to being tortured by the Afghan authorities.

In the Bagram prison and in secret sites within the Bagram prison there have been complaints about the United States engaging in torture. I think in more recent years the United States has been turning over more and more of its prison authorities and facilities to the Afghan people.

Robles: I’d like to ask you a hypothetical: what if, for example; China invaded theUnited States and they started killing people left and right, and anyone who fought against them was thrown into a prison for being a criminal, I mean: How would Americans feel?

Kelly: I think if the shoe were on the other foot and the Golden Rule were invoked, people all across this country would understand why it is that people start to join fighting forces.

There is a very interesting quote from a staff sergeant who is fictitiously named by an embedded reporter, in an article in The American Prospect John Frey embedded himself with a group doing night raids.

And after a week of these night raids, which are just horrendous invasions of other people’s homes… He said they tornadoed through houses, they broke people’s dishes and deliberately destroyed their furniture, shot the dog that was sleeping, hog-tied the householders. They didn’t do things that you could accuse as being war crimes but they create a huge antagonism.

At the end of that week the staff sergeant said: “You could say we just did a week long recruiting drive for the Taliban.” And then he continued, “ …and you know what; we had fun doing it! I like recruiting for the Taliban, you could call it job security for us.” And that’s the end of the quote…

Robles: In Obama’s State of the Union address, he quite proudly said they: “… would get the heart of Al Qaeda”. He said that with great pride, to a standing ovation. I wanted to ask you; how many Al-Qaeda “operatives or fighters or terrorists” are operating in Afghanistan? And are the Afghan people, or the Taliban: is that the heart of Al Qaeda in your opinion?

Kelly: When Leon Panetta was asked that question in December of 2011, I was shocked by his answer, you know (How many Al Qaeda operatives are there in Afghanistan?) He said: “Oh, about 55”.

Robles: 55!?!

Kelly: 55. $2 billion a week the United States is spending to maintain a full military presence and there might be as many as 55 Al Qaeda figures in the country?

I don’t think that that’s the reason why the United States’ war has been perpetuated in Afghanistan. I think that Al Qaeda has been used and that there are many different kinds of Taliban fighters, that some of them wouldn’t have even heard of the aims of Al Qaeda, and what’s more, I think, that the US insisting that the solution to every problem has to be a military solution; using threat and force, is in a sense endorsing the same aims as the Al Qaeda figures.

Parting

End of Part 1

  The US Built Al-Qaeda and Osama's Encampments - Part Two

The US built Al-Qaeda and Osama's encampments - exclusive interview Kathy Kellyhttp://m.ruvr.ru/2013/02/28/1338076120/kathylecturnbw.JPG

28 February, 2013 13:10       Download audio file

In Afghanistan any 15-30 year-old-male is a target for US "elimination", activists were arrested and sent to prison in the US for attempting to deliver a letter to Whiteman Air Force Base, where drone operations are conducted, stating why the United Nations believes drone are illegal, war and killing people is profitable for war-profiteers and the US Government knew about war crimes and the stealing of US weapons by former "Blackwater-XE" Academy but looks the other way. All of these matters and more were discussed in an interview with 3 time Nobel Peace Prize nominee Kathy Kelly, the co-coordinator for Voices for Creative Non-Violence.

Robles: Do most Americans know, or is the “man-in-the-street” in the United States right now, are they aware of the fact that al-Qaeda and the Taliban, and even Osama Bin Laden, they got their start in a large part thanks to the United States when they were fighting against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan? Do Americans know that?

Kelly: Well, if they do it’s not because they heard it on the mainstream media, they would have had to do some investigating. One of the reasons why initially the United States knew where to bomb potential encampments for Osama Bin Laden and the al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, was because the United States built them.

Robles: Recently there was this white paper came out justifying drone attacks on US citizens and basically it says: “… anyone who is a senior… A US citizen who is a senior al-Qaeda operative or associate…”, back to al-Qaeda: how many American senior operatives of Al-Qaeda do you know in the world, or have you ever heard of, or known about?

Kelly: You know there’re some real tragedies associated with that. There was a 16-year-old boy who had gone to a conference in Pakistan and at the conference they had given the youngsters cameras and said: “Try to… because we can’t get journalists into North and South Waziristan, we can’t document what’s happening but maybe you can, and then send the footage out.”

And he was targeted for assassination and killed. He wasn’t an American but al-Awlaki of course was, and this means that people with no due process, with no judge, jury, no trial, sometimes no charges whatsoever, people are targeted for assassination.

They actually say that if you are a young man between the ages of 15 and 30, you potentially could be a figure that the United States could eliminate, without any consultation. The President has a Tuesday morning meeting with about 100 people sometimes, on a conference call, and then they draw up their list.

Robles: Medea Benjamin told me that’s called Terror Tuesdays, is that correct?

Kelly: Yes. She has done such a wonderful job. I hope people will read her book. And of course she stays on top of these issues.

There are many people all across the country right now who are protesting drone warfare. Our co-coordinator Brian Terrell is serving a six-month prison sentence because he crossed the line at the Whiteman Air Force Base where they are operating drones. And he just wanted to deliver a letter with Mark Kenney who served four months in prison for the same action, and Ron Faust who was given five years probation. They had a letter showing the Air Force, how it is, that the United Nations believes, that the usage of drones is a violation of international law.

Robles: Before we started the interview you mentioned some peace volunteers in Afghanistan. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about them and what they’re doing? And some of the things you are doing on your trips to Afghanistan?

Kelly: Well, a group of youngsters have decided that they want to live without wars. They are not interested in revenge and retaliation, even though some of them lost their fathers, their brothers, uncles. Even though they’ve been among those displaced by the war.

Young Abdullah, when he was just a toddler had to be held over an open flame so that they could thaw out his body when they lived in a wretched refugee camp.

But these kids… (I shouldn’t say kids) …these young men and women have decided that it is in their best interests by far, to try to overcome ethnic divisions. So, the young men living together inter-ethnically and every morning they welcome seamstresses and students from different tribes and backgrounds and ethnic groups, to come into their home, and some are heading to an English class and some are part of seamstress cooperative. And they delivered 2,000 very heavy quilts, (they’re called duvets) to the neediest of families, and they fanned out up the mountainside and into the refugee camps to find out, where these duvets would most be needed.

The women seamstresses made them: they came every day and collected materials and then they’d send their little kids with wheelbarrows bringing back the finished duvets. And it is a very astounding project to me.

All the duvets were delivered free of charge and the women were paid a meager salary. And it was international, through Voices’ outreach that paid for the materials and for this meager salary.

So we see small microcosmic examples of people wanting to work together to alleviate suffering, to build a better world. I find it so hopeful when I go to Afghanistan, but I’ll tell you it’s also really cold, and the harsh winters are hard even if you are in a room with a wood burning or coal burning stove, and people have respiratory diseases all across the country.

The conditions are very-very hard because the infrastructure is so awful, I mean the electricity goes out and your water might be dependent on a well linked to the electricity, and then you are without water. And you know, that’s how people get cholera; they can’t flush down their own waste.

Robles: Who is causing all this suffering in your opinion?

Kelly: Well, I do want to remind us that: United States has been spending $2 billion a week, much of it lining the pockets of corrupt warlords. $2 billion a week on its military presence, while right across the street from some of the military bases there are sprawling refugee camps.

So, I think any time the US public wages a war of choice and chooses as its target civilians who are living in one of the poorest countries in the world, then I think we have to do with, the cause, of a great deal of suffering, we may not know it, but we are not innocent.

Robles: $2 billion a week. How many years has it been, over 12 years now? You’d think that every single Afghan person would be living in a mansion driving a Bentley for that much money.

Kelly: Yes, of course there are people who have ammassed huge fortunes, and before we point fingers at Afghans who have, through corruption amassed fortunes, we should look at the war profiteers and major US companies in the United States and the universities that take their contracts, and the faith-based communities that look the other way and the media people that refuse to tell the story. So, there is plenty of blame to go around, and there are plenty of other countries that have fought their wars within Afghanistan.

Pakistan and Iran are fighting proxy wars as we speak today, and in many ways there are Cold War competitions going on between the United States and China, the United States and Russia, and all of those could be solved through negotiation and dialogue and coming to our senses, but instead people like to continue these wars because there is profitability in killing people.

Robles: You talked about war profiteers. Can you tell us a little bit, because we are almost out of time, about the former Blackwater who was then XE, and are now called Academy I believe?

Kelly: This is a group of mercenaries. They are people who have contracted themselves out at great profit, I mean: the going rate for the high-end security contractors is a salary of $129,000 a year, first 89,000 of it, tax free. And uh, they’re adapted Special Forces Operations, and Academy, the new Blackwater incarnation I suppose, is building Camp Integrity on 10 acres of land just outside of Kabul, which will train people in Special Forces Operations.

They got the contract from the United States Government, even though the US Government certainly knew that their antecedents in Blackwater had been convicted of killing Afghan civilians and also allegedly killing Iraqi civilians in Tahrir Square and also of stealing weapons from the United States military, but they must have fantastic inner connections to keep getting these contracts.

Robles: Before they changed their name to XE they were being investigated for war crimes in Iraq. What percentage would you say there are of private mercenaries and contractors in Afghanistan? And are those counted in any way when the US Government talks about a drawdown or a withdrawal of forces?

Kelly: You know, it is so hard to learn that information, I honestly don’t know. You don’t see Westerners at all in the neighborhood where I am, when I’m moving around the city, it’s odd because when you are in the airports, you see plenty of Westerners and most of them seem to be connected to some kind of military or security group. But I don’t have any numbers.

I think that also the CIA must have many-many operatives and they don’t have to give that kind of information out, but it is a good thing to keep exploring and trying to better understand. At one point there were as many security contractors in Iraq, as there were US military, and the same could be true for Afghanistan.

Robles: Last point, this training base they are building, I was going to ask, is this supposedly to train Afghan peacekeeping forces or Afghan security services?

Kelly: I certainly wouldn’t call it peacekeeping. I think that would be euphemistic.

Robles: Yeah sure!

Kelly:The different versions of Afghan armed troops are staggering in their number; there is the Afghan local police and the Afghan National Security Force, you’ve got special operations now being trained amongst quite a few different military branches. So, it is not certain but the more armaments, the more weapons that flow into the country the more rage that is being felt between different ethnic groups, the more of a prescription for civil war there is, and so it is very alarming to see more sophisticated weaponry coming in and people being trained, to train their weapons on their own people.

Robles: Ok, thank you very Kathy. Unfortunately we are out of time. I really appreciate you speaking with me.

Kelly: Thank you!

This is John Robles you were listening to an interview with Kathy Kelly the co-coordinator for Voices for Creative Nonviolence. Thanks for listening, and I wish you the best.

 

 

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