INTERVIEW 8 ~ TAPE 16

Person interviewed: Michael John Smith

Place of interview: Paddington Green Police Station

Date of interview: 10^th August 1992

Time commenced: 20:19 Time concluded: 20:47

Other persons present: Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod

Detective Sergeant Stephen John Beels

Richard Jefferies (Duty Solicitor)

Beels: This interview is being tape-recorded. I am Detective Sergeant Stephen Beels, Special Branch, New Scotland Yard. The other officer present is …

MacLeod: Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod, Special Branch, New Scotland Yard.

Beels: And you are sir …

Smith: Mr Michael Smith.

Beels: And you are sir …

Jefferies: Richard Jefferies, Solicitor from Tucker’s Solicitors.

Beels: We are in Interview Room No. 2, at Paddington Green Police Station. At the end of this interview, Mr Smith, I will give you a form explaining your rights of access to a copy of the tape. The date is the 10^th August, and the time is 8:19 pm. I must caution you, Mr Smith, that you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be given in evidence. Do you understand that?

Smith: I do understand.

Beels: Do you agree that the tapes were unsealed in your presence?

Smith: I do, yes I do.

Beels: Your solicitor is present, and you know that you’re entitled to free legal advice?

Smith: Correct.

Beels: This is a continuing investigation into suspected offences under the Official Secrets Act. You understand, that’s the nature of the enquiry?

Smith: Ok. I understand that.

MacLeod: Right, let’s begin Mr Smith. Perhaps you can tell me, are you in the habit of keeping large sums of money at home?

Smith: We, I thought we already, er, I do keep money at home, yes.

MacLeod: What sort of sums are you talking about?

Smith: Not enormous. I’d, er, in the region of, er, a £1,000, that sort of amount.

MacLeod: A £1,000. What at home?

Smith: My wife also keeps money. We, it’s sort of emergency funds.

MacLeod: Right, well, I see. It’s money that you accumulate, is it? I mean, it’s money you just have, you just add to from time to time, is it?

Smith: Yes, to, to keep, er, a certain balance. As I said before, I mean, I’m, I’m quite in the habit, if I want to buy something ...

MacLeod: Um, um.

Smith: …to try and do a cash deal. I mean, er …

MacLeod: So a £1,000 is quite normal for you to keep around the house, roughly?

Smith: I wouldn’t say normal, in the, er, full time. No, it goes up and down.

MacLeod: Well, we found £2,000 in cash, in £50 notes, in your house when we searched it.

Smith: Well, that doesn’t surprise me.

MacLeod: So, can you tell me where that came from?

Smith: Well, it’s money I’ve, I’ve withdrawn from my account.

Beels: In what sort of quantities?

Smith: In, in £50 notes.

Beels: On one particular occasion, on separate occasions?

Smith: I’d say separate occasions.

Beels: And approximately, how many separate occasions?

Smith: I don’t remember all this.

MacLeod: So, this is quite normal, for you to, sort of, go to the bank and draw cash, and have something like £2,000 lying around the house?

Smith: I wouldn’t say, it’s, it’s not normal, in the sense that, er, I would do it in one go, or at one time, no.

MacLeod: So, I mean, we are not to be too surprised that you’ve got £2,000 in cash in a drawer, um, in a table in your bedroom, in your bedroom in a drawer. Is that quite normal then?

Smith: Well, I think it is, yes.

MacLeod: So, that was the money, that was brought up over a period of, how long would you say you, sort of, accumulated that sort of amount of money?

Smith: Well, it doesn’t take all that long, I, I get a reasonable wage. Er, I had, er, a tax rebate a couple of years ago …

MacLeod: Um, um.

Smith: … which gave me quite a lot. I’ve just had a redundancy payment. I mean, I …

MacLeod: Yeah.

Smith: If I find …

MacLeod: But they wouldn’t pay you cash in redundancy payment, would they?

Smith: No, but I, I, I just pay that money into, into my account.

MacLeod: Sorry, I’m not clear. You paid what money into your account?

Smith: My redundancy cheque.

MacLeod: Oh, you paid that into …

Smith: It only, it only came a few days ago.

MacLeod: How much was that for?

Smith: £1,435.

MacLeod: Fourteen thirty-five?

Smith: Pounds.

MacLeod: So, what you’re saying is that some of that money might be your redundancy money?

Smith: Er, I’m not sure if that’s included, no.

MacLeod: So, are we are talking about another sum of money, another …?

Smith: Well, I … I said before, the way I do my accounting, run my finances, is, is rather chaotic. I mean, you’ll probably find that if you look at my bank statements, I, I go up and down in balance. I withdraw large amounts when I want to, and it’s, it’s just the way I, I live.

MacLeod: Yes, I find it quite interesting the way you live, in fact, that you have this amount of money lying around.

Smith: Well, no. The fact is, my wife and I, um, we run our affairs separately to a large extent financially. We have a joint account, which, er, pays for the bills. As I say, we have a fairly low mortgage, which does help to, to allow us to buy the things we want.

MacLeod: Right. So, what we’ve got here, is an envelope containing £2,000 in £50 notes, that you’ve put together over a period of, what?

Smith: I didn’t say over any period. No, I’m not, I’m not …

MacLeod: Oh, well, well, just, just for arguments sake, I mean.

Smith: Well, I’ve, I’ve only started to want to, to, to want to deal in cash more …

MacLeod: Uh, uh.

… with, em, when, when there’s been these high interest rates, and, er, credit cards, um, being questioned sometimes when I’ve, I’ve tried to do a deal in a shop, and the guy said, well you know, “I’d rather you not pay with credit card, because we have to pay a certain amount so”. I’ve, I got this habit from my father-in-law, who, who finds he can save quite a bit of money by ...

MacLeod: By shopping around and getting a discount?

Smith: By shopping around, and getting, getting the discount on cash. I mean, I, I thought this was, er, an accepted way of bartering, in, in ...

MacLeod: But, I mean, what sort of things would you go out and buy?

Smith: What, just everyday things that I might need in the house, or ...

MacLeod: So really, this £2,000, we ought not to be surprised then, that this is ...?

Smith: I don’t see why. I mean, it’s, it’s not, I mean, when you say large amounts, I mean to me ...

MacLeod: So it’s not …

Smith: I, I don’t. I, as I said before, I’m a bit of a hoarder. I don’t really feel that that amount of money bothers me.

MacLeod: So, really, what I’m saying is, that amount of money, that £2,000 I’m talking about, is money that you’ve sort of put together from your, your savings?

Smith: Yeah, yes.

MacLeod: Over just a period of, you know, time. So, you didn’t, you didn’t take that out of your bank in one large, in one single sum. It wasn’t one withdrawal, is that what you’re saying?

Smith: I would say it’s not one withdrawal, no

MacLeod: Well you are lying.

Beels: How many?

MacLeod: You are lying. You’re lying through your teeth, because the bank notes were serial. The serial numbers …

Beels: The serial numbers are sequential.

Smith: Well I don’t think they’ll all be sequential.

MacLeod: Well, I’m telling you they were. So how do you account for that?

Smith: I can’t account for that.

MacLeod: I think you’d better start thinking how you can account for that.

Beels: You’ve just said it’s an accumulation.

MacLeod: You’re lying.

Beels: Over a period of time, and yet these bank notes run in sequence, and 2 separate amounts in sequence.

Smith: I can’t account for that, I’m sorry.

MacLeod: Well, we will be able to account for it, because we should be able to find out when and where that money was withdrawn, and we will see what you have to say about that. Why are you lying about it?

Smith: I’m not lying about it.

MacLeod: You’re sitting there. You told me, to begin with, that you, it was money that you had accumulated and, you wouldn’t commit yourself as to how long it took you to put that together.

Smith: I did not say that.

MacLeod: You said it was, you said it wasn’t a single withdrawal from the bank, and then, when faced with this incontrovertible evidence where the serial numbers were sequential, £2,000 in £50 notes, and you’re telling me, you, you don’t understand how that’s happened. I’ll tell you how it’s happened, because that was a lump sum payment,

a lump sum payment, paid to you by the KGB.

Smith: That’s not true.

MacLeod: It is true, you know it’s true. I know it’s true, and that’s why I’m calling you a liar, and if I’m wrong you, you prove me wrong, tell me where I’m wrong, correct me. I don’t call people liars unless I’m absolutely on firm ground. You are a liar, and I’ll keep repeating this as long as it takes to get the message through to you, you’re lying.

Smith: Well you can accuse me of lying if you like.

MacLeod: Right, well.

Smith: It’s, it’s your prerogative to call me what you like

MacLeod: Well, I’m calling you a liar in front of your solicitor, just to make the position absolutely and unequivocally clear. Right, so we don’t get very far with that lot. Found in the same envelope with the money, there was a, a letter from somebody called Williams. Can you tell me, have a read of that letter and tell me who that is. I produce exhibit JS/40, and I’m showing it to Mr Smith now, and it’s an A4 size single sheet of paper.

Smith: I remember a letter coming for me - I think this must be it - sometime ago, which was confusing to me, it wasn’t the

letter, it was the envelope that bothered me, because the address was wrong on it, and ...

MacLeod: So, if the address was wrong, how come they got the Christian name right, and it reads "Dear Mike, a lot of water has passed under the bridge after our latest appointment, I am sure we should have a chat in the nearest future. I would be happy to meet you, as previously, at the recreation in October. With best wishes, Yours sincerely, Williams".

Smith: Yes

MacLeod: And you’re telling me that that is something that wasn’t written to you?

Smith: Well, it’s …

MacLeod: I suppose, I suppose …

Smith: … I didn’t say it wasn’t written to me. I received a letter, which I think this must be this one that you’re presenting here. The reason I, I’ve kept it, is because it was, er, something which I didn’t understand at the time. [MacLeod laughs] I don’t know why you’re laughing …

MacLeod: You, you didn’t understand it, and you kept it, and I suppose that’s where you got your £2,000 from as well, was it?

Smith: No, there was no mention of money there.

MacLeod: No, there was no mention of money, but it was in the same envelope as the money.

Smith: I don’t believe that’s true.

MacLeod: Well, I’ve got evidence that it was true, because before we removed that from the drawer where it was contained, we had it photographed, and items were photographed as they were removed, and are you going to tell me that’s wrong. Explain it?

Smith: I can’t explain ...

MacLeod: Explain it?

Smith: … what you’re saying, what I’m, I’m explaining this letter. A letter arrived for me, which I did not understand. I did not understand.

MacLeod: There’s a lot of things you don’t understand. You get strange phone calls that you don’t understand, you’ve got people standing outside your front address apparently.

Smith: I was trying to explain that to you earlier. That I, I had …

MacLeod: Who is Williams?

Smith: I do not know who Williams is.

MacLeod: You must take us for being idiots.

Smith: I had a friend at EMI Electronics called Williams, er, Dave Williams, maybe it was him. I, I don’t, I doubt it. The, the …

MacLeod: I doubt it too.

Smith: The letter that came was in an envelope, which as I say had an incorrect address on it. I was, er, I didn’t recognise the handwriting, and I found it rather puzzling. I mean, I would have thrown it away, but I, I ...

MacLeod: You kept it out of curiosity did you?

Smith: Out of curiosity, yes.

MacLeod: Uh, uh.

Beels: How was the address incorrect?

Smith: It was, I think they had the wrong road name, or something.

MacLeod: Well how …?

Smith: There was something odd about it, which ...

MacLeod: Well, how did it find its way to you then, if it had the wrong address?

Smith: Because, I wondered how it got to me, that’s why.

MacLeod: I’m sure you did. And it was addressed to you, Mr Mike Smith, was it not?

Smith: I don’t remember that, I’ve not seen the envelope for sometime.

MacLeod: I’ll show you the envelope in the next interview. Explain it, this is consistent with the kind of contact, you know, and I know, that the KGB make when trying to re-establish contact.

Smith: I do not know that, I’m, I’m afraid to say.

MacLeod: Yes you do. Yes you do.

Smith: If I had any worries about that letter, I would have thrown it away.

MacLeod: Where is your credibility, where is your credibility man. You get a letter from somebody that you don’t know?

Smith: Well, there’s no address on it, so I couldn’t, I couldn’t contact anybody about it. So what’s, what’s the point of you ...

MacLeod: How come that was found in the envelope with the £2,000, and some other notes that I’ll produce in the next meeting, once we’ve had a chance to look at them. Notes that appear to be quite interesting, regarding arrangements for rendezvous.

We’ll pay that a little bit more attention in the next interview. But let’s take one step at a time. Here we have £2,000 cash, £50 notes, serial numbers running sequentially. Here we’ve got a letter from a man named Williams, who clearly you had some recent contact with.

Smith: No.

MacLeod: And arranging to meet you again at the recreation.

Smith: I do not know ...

MacLeod: What is the recreation?

Smith: I do not know anybody called Williams

MacLeod: Where’s your credibility?

Smith: Well, where is his first name. I mean, Williams is a surname... as well?

MacLeod: Well, even I can work that out.

Smith: As I say, the only Williams I’ve, I’ve known is a man called David Williams.

MacLeod: Look, don’t take us for idiots.

Smith: I didn’t say …

MacLeod: You know as well, I’m not interested in your David Williams, you know that that’s probably a pseudonym for one of your KGB contacts.

Smith: I, I can’t answer that, because I don’t know who this man is.

MacLeod: I’m surprised you’re telling me that you’ve never seen that before.

Smith: I didn’t say I’d never seen that before.

MacLeod: Well, I, that’s what I’m saying, I’m surprised you’re not saying that.

Smith: Well, why should I?

MacLeod: Because it’s, it’s only when you’re faced with irrefutable evidence that you have to admit.

Smith: Well, well, I would not, em, say I hadn’t seen that. When you raised the point before about the, er, TSC document, I say I hadn’t seen it before, because I, I truly believed I hadn’t seen it before. You, you showed

me this, and I say yes, I have seen it before. I, I kept it because it was …

MacLeod: Yes, you’ve seen it before, but you’re denying that it is intended for you.

Smith: I didn’t deny it was intended for me. What, what I’m saying is, it came through the post. I was trying to understand who might have sent it.

MacLeod: So, you’re, you’re not denying it. It may have been, it was intended for you.

Smith: No, I didn’t say, er, I deny it, it was intended for me. I …

MacLeod: So you’re saying it was intended for you?

Smith: I don’t know.

MacLeod: It’s addressed to you. You’re Mike. You’re the only Mike at that address.

Smith: That’s correct. Well, what do you want me to say. I …

MacLeod: Well?

Smith: I saw this.

MacLeod: I’m not pursuing that line of questioning any further, because I see I’m not going to get very far.

Right, have you seen that note before. I’m going to produce exhibit JS/8, which is an A4 piece of paper with some manuscript writing on it. I’m going to show this to Mr Smith. Have you seen that before?

Smith: Yes, I think it was some, er, something I was doing at work. It was probably part of this documentation I said I walked off with on the last Friday I was there.

MacLeod: Well, talk me through it, tell me what it means, go on.

Smith: These were, um, I think they were numbers, related to contracts that we were dealing with at the company, at Hirst Research Centre.

MacLeod: Well, can we just go through them one by one. Let’s look at this top line here. Have you anything you can recall about what this relates to?

Smith: I, I, I can’t give you any factual information about these. These were contracts which came up in the course of my work, I, er, when I do my audits, have to check, er, sometimes the contracts which are in place in, in a particular, er, project group, and look up, um, the, the documentation to say which, um, - I’m trying to think of the word – which contract, which order is involved with that group. So that, when I audit them, I can ask them questions about particular contract requirements, and these, these are areas that I have actually covered in the last year or so.

MacLeod: So, what are you doing with these references in your possession?

Smith: I, I don’t know why I kept them. They should not have, um, they’ve, they’ve no relevance to me now.

MacLeod: Well, it, maybe a bit of relevance to somebody else, is that not true?

Smith: No, I don’t think so. I mean, because, because they’re purely ...

MacLeod: Purely what?

Smith: But there’s no information there, if, if you look. They’re purely, um, numbers, and, and areas, um, within the company.

MacLeod: Well, how come this was underneath the, the mat in the front of your car?

Smith: The mat in my car?

MacLeod: Yes, underneath your car mat, but at the driver’s side in your car.

Smith: I find that hard to believe, why it should be there.

MacLeod: Well, you, you find it hard to believe?

Smith: Well, well, the …

MacLeod: We found that this morning.

Smith: I had, I had a leak in the bottom of my car. I put something under there to stop it, er, making the mat wet. Maybe that was ...

MacLeod: What, you put that …

Smith: I’d, I don’t …

MacLeod: It strikes me that …

Beels: It’s bone dry.

MacLeod: It’s not the kind of leak …

Beels: There’s no water stain.

MacLeod: It’s not the kind of leaks that we’re interested in Mr Smith, I think you should concentrate, and tell me why that was under the, the mat at the front of the driver’s side of your car. That was secreted, that was a document which was intended ...

Smith: I wouldn’t say it was secreted. I …

MacLeod: If it’s under a mat, it’s got to be secreted. It wasn’t intended to be found, was it? And you’re telling me you put it under the mat?

Smith: Well, why should I put it under the mat? I didn’t …

MacLeod: Because, didn’t you say, because there was a leak under the car? I don’t know what.

Smith: I don’t know why that was there. I, I’m, I’m

MacLeod: No, I’m sure you don’t, but I’m at a bit of a loss why we put a, a document, containing those kind of references ...

Smith: Well, I, I put, er, a plastic bag under the mat, to stop it.

MacLeod: Oh, I see. Well how did that find it’s way under there then?

Smith: Maybe it was in the bag when, when I put it there. I don’t know. I, I do, I can’t …

MacLeod: But we didn’t find a plastic bag from the ...

Smith: I cannot give you an explanation, because I, I don’t know how long that has been there for, for one thing. We would have to check those contracts, and see when they actually, um, were being worked on.

MacLeod: Well, well, it strikes me that that’s a fairly, er, clean piece of paper. Does it strike you as being a clean bit of paper?

Smith: Well, it looks a bit scrappy to me, I mean.

MacLeod: Scrappy, but it’s, none the less, there’s no water marks, there’s no stains on it. It’s been handled a bit, granted, but it doesn’t appear to have been under there for a very long time. Do you agree?

Smith: I, I can’t give an opinion on that, I’m afraid.

MacLeod: Well, is it not obvious?

Smith: Well, it could have been there for 5 years, for all I know.

MacLeod: Come, come, look at it. It will be interesting to see if, what your company has to say about that.

Smith: I think, there’s nothing there which I would be ashamed of showing anybody. If you think about it seriously. I mean, what is there there, but, er, a few numbers and ...

MacLeod: Yes I know, but I find it interesting, that we should find a note like this under the mat of your car.

Smith: The only explanation I can give is hypothesis, that it was included in something I’d put in, in that bag. There definitely was a leak, the mat was wet. You’ll probably find some evidence that the mat was wet, at the edge, when it was raining heavily. Because I had a leak, the door was actually, the skin was replaced.

MacLeod: So, if I have a leak in the floor of my car - and I’m still trying to work out how the rain gets in - but anyway, if I have a leak in the floor of my car ...

Smith: But, I’m not sure if it’s in the floor of the car?

MacLeod: If I get an A4 piece of paper, it just might do the trick, is that what you’re saying?

Smith: No. I’m, I’m telling you, it would, it would not have been that. There was a plastic bag which I, I was using, it might have been in the bag for some reason, I, I can’t think why.

MacLeod: Well, I think you know very well why.

Smith: Well can you tell me then?

MacLeod: Yes, because that was information that you took from the company, information that you compiled I should say, at some stage, relating to work that you’d carried out, or had knowledge of at the company.

Smith: I think that’s conjecture.

MacLeod: Conjecture? Well, how come I was, I’ll come back to it then. Well if it’s not.

Smith: Can we look at what’s actually on there, and is there anything that I should be ashamed of?

MacLeod: Well, these figures and references mean nothing to me, and until ...

Smith: Well, I mean, they mean something to me, and I’m trying to explain to you that they, they were contracts, that were taking place in the company, in areas that I was, I was auditing, and, and I may have, I may have .... I mean, the reason it was folded, it was probably in my pocket. I probably just put it in the bag.

MacLeod: Yes, well, it would certainly appear to us as if it had been folded.

Smith: When, I think, I’m walking around with my jacket on, I probably made, made some notes. I, I put it in my pocket, and it was there, and I put it in the bag. I don’t, I mean, it’s, it’s all, er, speculation now, because I do not remember that actually being put in that bag.

MacLeod: But you’re pretty good at making notes, aren’t you?

Smith: Well, it’s in the nature of my business to make notes, I’m afraid. Er, if I don’t make notes, I don’t, I don’t remember things.

MacLeod: Well, I intend to come back to this subject later, but I’m now going to ask you again, about your visit to the United States in 1976. I want you to refresh my memory.

Smith: Ok.

MacLeod: Right, tell me where you went.

Smith: Er, you mean the towns, or the countries?

MacLeod: Yes, I am talking about the United States.

Smith: Ok. In the United States I went to Chicago, I went to, um, New York, um, Philadelphia, Boston, Pittsburg, Detroit. I mean, these are places I passed through, I didn’t necessary stop.

MacLeod: And who did you go with?

Smith: I went alone.

MacLeod: And how long did you spend in Chicago?

Smith: Er, about a week and a half, I would say.

MacLeod: Um, um. Did you make any efforts to look for employment there?

Smith: No, I, I did make an enquiry from the person I was staying with. Um, what sort of job prospects there were, how …

MacLeod: And who …

Smith: How people, people were paid for doing engineering work. But I was told that the prospects weren’t too good. I didn’t consider it, er, I certainly wouldn’t have wanted to, to live in Chicago, having seen it.

MacLeod: But you still took steps, did you not, to try to find suitable employment over there?

Smith: No, I took no steps whatsoever. I …

MacLeod: Well, why have you got a press cutting with, advertising job vacancies?

Smith: Ah.

MacLeod: I’m going to produce to Mr Smith.

Smith: You’ve been pretty thorough, I must admit. That, I know, I know exactly what about this.

MacLeod: I’m producing to Mr Smith now, exhibit PMS/26. This is a press cutting taken from United States newspapers.

Smith: Was there a letter with it? Maybe you, you’ve … I, I, threw it away I expect.

MacLeod: Well?

Smith: There was a letter.

MacLeod: Talk me through it.

Smith: I was talking to, er, in, in a period before I went to the States, and this maybe as much as a year before. I had, er, the girlfriend. I, I call her a girlfriend, she wasn’t really a girlfriend, she was just, er, somebody I met on holiday in 1973. She was, em, a native of Chicago, living with her parents there, and, um, we met in Crete in 1973 whilst, whilst on holiday.

Beels: What was her name?

Smith: Her first name was Diane, I can’t remember her second name. She was somebody, I didn’t know her very well, but she wrote to me a few times, and I have made, not an enquiry, just that I mentioned in one of my letters to her, um, about the work I was doing, and whether, that there might be anything suitable there. It wasn’t that I was looking for work. I was, I was curious, more than anything, because she told me about the sort of job she did, and I just wondered what, what sort of jobs were available, and she sent me this cutting, that was what, why I had it. I didn’t collect that while I was in the States. Was there a date? I, I’m not sure if there was a date on this, I can’t remember.

MacLeod: Well, I’m sure, I’m sure, and I’ll take your work for it. It coincides with your visit. Er, how much did you pay for your trip to the United States?

Smith: When you, you say pay, what do you mean, totally? I, I can’t give you any ...

MacLeod: Your fare. Just roughly, can you remember how much you paid for your fare, in those days, long time I know.

Smith: It’s a long time ago.

MacLeod: I agree. Well, put it this way …

Smith: It was anything up to £200. I can’t …

MacLeod: Right, Ok.

Smith: Less than £200, actually.

MacLeod: So, I mean, we would expect to find a withdrawal from your bank?

Smith: No, no. I think, I said, I paid for it on ACCESS, I believe.

MacLeod: On ACCESS?

Smith: I think? You’re, you’re taking me back a long time here, and I ...

MacLeod: Yeah, I know, I’ll take you as far back as you want. But you’re saying that you paid for your airline ticket by ACCESS, by credit card?

Smith: I think. I’m saying, I think I did.

MacLeod: You think you did. Right, Ok. Well, I’m going to put it to you, that that trip to the United States was financed by the KGB.

Smith: You said this yesterday.

MacLeod: And I’m saying it again, with even more authority.

Smith: Well, you can say it as much as you like. I can’t see how you could possibly substantiate an allegation like that?

Beels: Right. At this point, the tape is coming to an end, so I am going to switch the machine off and change tapes. The time now is 8:47 pm.

INTERVIEW 8 ~ TAPE 17

Smith: Well, I’d like to, to add about this, this girl in Chicago, that I had a, a number of letters from her, but that my wife destroyed them when we got married, when she found them, because she was very jealous of, er, there being, er, possibly another woman. So, I think, that’s the reason why you, you might not have found any letter with that.

MacLeod: Right. Let’s go back to your finances. We’ll take you through this in some, more detail tomorrow, but I’m very curious about this £2,000 in particular. Talk me through it again.

Smith: Well, what can I say. I mean, I’ve, I’ve, I had some money at home. I’d, er, it is my money.

MacLeod: I wouldn’t do that in front of your solicitor. You told me that, did you not?

MacLeod: And here you’ve got serial numbers, running in sequence, and you’re telling me that that was amount of monies that you had, and they’re all brand new bank, bank notes. And that’s a bit of an oddity is it not, for money to have been built up over a period of time?

Smith: O yeah. I don’t know if I built it up over a period of time, or whether it’s ...

MacLeod: Or even just weeks, for them all to have sequential serial numbers. Seems a bit odd doesn’t it. Do you want to reflect on that, because I mean, you’ve, you’ve told me another lie?

MacLeod: Yeah, well, you told me that this was money. Explain to me how you can have money with serial numbers running sequentially. We, we have got them, we’ve built the money up.

Smith: All I can suggest is that I, I must have withdrawn the money in, er, one time. I, I, I think you’re trying to, to make too much of this issue.

MacLeod: I asked you a simple question. I asked you a simple question, where did you get £2,000 worth, how, how come you had £2,000 in cash in your bedroom. And you explain to me, that that was money that had been built up out of salary, from other sources, I think you said, you still haven’t clarified.

MacLeod: Well, tell me about these other sources, because … I mean, explain to me what other sources?

Smith: I’d, I’d other sources. I don’t mean other sources in the way you might imagine.

Smith: I’ve had, you know, other, other means of income apart from just, er, the work I do at GEC.

Smith: Well, I’ve, I’ve earned some money through, em, through playing the guitar.

MacLeod: So, how come you’ve got this money in your, in your possession now that, are you telling me that, have you got any other sources of money then?

Smith: It’s, it’s difficult to remember when, when people have given me money in the past, er, in exchange for things, em, that I’ve not banked, er. It’s happening all the time, when I get, I get, er ...

MacLeod: When you’re meeting your KGB controller. It’s difficult to know what to do with the money, because he’s given you cash.

Smith: I get a bit, money from, from where I work, in the form of expenses, sometimes, and, er, I received over a hundred pounds only, er ...

MacLeod: Yeah, Ok, fair enough, it’s quite reasonable. But what I don’t find reasonable, is how you can have £2,000 brand new bank notes, £50 bank notes with numbers running sequentially. Tell me, where did you get that £2,000 from?

MacLeod: But you haven’t. This, I’m sorry to labour the point, but you haven’t satisfied my question. You haven’t told me where you got this £2,000 from. It’s not logical. Think about it, you’re an intelligent man, for goodness sake. Two grand, fifty pound brand new bank notes, numbers running in sequence. Explain to me, where did you get the money from?

MacLeod: Well, I must be pretty thick, but I can’t quite reconcile your answers with the, with what is logical, a logical question. Brand new bank notes, £50 notes, numbers running ...

Smith: As I explained before, I’m, I’m not in possession of my accounts documentation, and I, I find it hard to, to think about figures without ...

MacLeod: Right. So, did you withdraw it from the bank? Did you make a cash withdrawal from the bank?

Smith: I do not remember now. I mean, you’re, you’re, you’re expecting me, sitting here, to think about my, my, my accounts, going back over, I don’t know how long, and not have any ...

MacLeod: I’m talking about this money, that has obviously been withdrawn quite recently - £2,000. I’m sure, if the average man in the street withdrew £100, or £200, he’d probably remember when he made a withdrawal. You’ve got £2,000. You still haven’t satisfied my question, and I’m going to labour this point until I get a satisfactory answer.

Smith: You can labour it as much as you like. I mean, I’m not going to sit here and, er, give you an answer that’s going to satisfy you, without some, er, better access to my figures.

Smith: I, I’m not dealing, um, over the, the period of 2 or 3 years. I mean, I’ve, I’ve hardly looked at my accounts, um, to know what, what I’m, what figures I, I have in the bank at any time. I have, I have, em, found …

Smith: I found the figures of over, recently, I found over a £1,000 extra in my account, that I didn’t realise I had, because I hadn’t done my sums for about 2 years. I didn’t - I hadn’t really sorted out - all I knew is, bank statements were coming through, and showing that I was in the black, so I, I didn’t worry about it.

MacLeod: I’m not talking about your finances over the last number of years, or in recent times. That will be dealt with tomorrow in a separate interview. But what I’m concerned about, and what I want a satisfactory answer to, is where did you get that £2,000. Because, by tomorrow, I shall know exactly where that money was issued, and at what bank. Now, I’m giving you the opportunity to tell me now, where that money came from.

MacLeod: But you’re the one that can provide the answer. A simple question, where did you get £2,000 from in brand new £50 notes?

Smith: Well, I explained before. I, I have withdrawn money from my account in the past, my, my Abbey National account.

MacLeod: But how does that account for brand new bank notes, numbers running sequentially. Explain it?

MacLeod: Well, explain £2,000. If I had £2,000 in my bedroom drawer, I’d be able to tell you in an instant where it came from. If I had £200 stuffed in my bedroom drawer, I’d be able to tell you where it came from. Here you’ve got 2 grand stuffed away, and you don’t know where it came from?

MacLeod: But you haven’t explained to me. You’ve, you’ve just told me that you do some, or you did some time ago, you did some guitar playing, in some school down the Lilly Road.

MacLeod: Can’t you come up with a better answer than that, I’m giving you a chance. I can’t get, I can’t be fairer than that. I’ll give you a chance, now, to think again. £2,000. The KGB weren’t very clever there, were they, not very professional at all?

MacLeod: I’m telling you, it is in connection with your KGB activities. That was a lump sum paid to you by your KGB controller, and you know well. That’s why you can’t answer the question. You …

Smith: So, you actually know this, do you? Because I can’t conceive, er, how that could implicate me with the KGB. I’m sorry.

MacLeod: Right, Ok, Let’s, let’s take it that the KGB don’t feature in this. Tell me where the £2,000 came from. Just enlighten me?

MacLeod: Oh, I didn’t suggest that for one minute. I’m not suggesting that for one moment. That’s your money, found in your bedroom drawer, and I want to know from you where that money came from, if I have to labour this point over and over again.

Smith: Ok. Well. I, I, I’m saying it is my money, it’s in my drawer, and it’s my business.

MacLeod: I know it’s your money, I know it’s in your drawer, and I know it’s your business. It is also my business too, to try to establish where that money came from.

MacLeod: Ok. If you feel there is a case here, then you, you, you need to show that there’s something dishonest about that money, I’m afraid.

Smith: As far as I’m concerned, it’s, er, not a ... there’s no, no question about it being my money.

MacLeod: It’s in your possession, it’s your money. But what I’m asking, is where it came from, and you still have not answered my question satisfactorily. You tried to tell me that was money that was built up over ...

Smith: Well I, I think you’ve reached an impasse on this question. I don’t, don’t …

Smith: You can carry on asking till the cows come home, there’s no way ...

Smith: I didn’t say that. There’s no way I can answer it to your satisfaction, and, er ...

MacLeod: Are you surprised? Here you’ve got £2,000, brand new £50 notes, serial numbers running, running in order, and all I’m asking you to do, is just give me a simple answer?

MacLeod: Well, indeed. I think I’m wasting my time trying to pursue this point. Right. Let’s go back to the, to the note under the, or, correction, the note that was found with the money. I’m going to reproduce the exhibit JS/40, produced earlier in this interview. That’s a letter to, er, Mr Smith from somebody called Williams. Let’s talk about Mr Williams again. Have you had any more thoughts on who this Williams is?

Smith: I don’t know anybody by the name of Williams, apart from the person I’ve, I’ve spoken about earlier. How could I possibly, er, know somebody called Williams, er, without a first name?

MacLeod: Well, clearly, he must have known you, to have written to you, and I find it curious that that letter should have been in the same envelope containing the £2,000, and containing, and containing other pieces of scrap paper giving directions to rendezvous points.

MacLeod: It’s not impossible, because, when I’ve had them looked at I’m going to show you. You weren’t very professional there, were you, two grand stacked away with a letter of, a letter from your handler, together with your previous instructions on how to re-establish contact. My goodness me, the KGB are not that bright are they, they’ll be disappointed in you.

Smith: I have got nothing to worry about. That letter was from somebody else, to me, and I, I don’t understand the message in it.

MacLeod: You don’t understand the message in it? I think that’s a fairly straight forward message. I mean, you’re an intelligent man, you’re not an idiot, you’ve, you’ve got a university degree, and you’re telling me you don’t understand the content of a simple letter like that?

Smith: Well, if I understood who this Mr Williams, or Williams something or other, was, I, I could perhaps, have, um, contacted him, but there was no address there, as you can see.

MacLeod: "A lot of water has passed under the bridge, after our latest appointment".

MacLeod: Well, it, it probably makes sense to the actual sender, and to the recipient, and as you were the addressee, it must make a lot of sense to you Mr Smith.

MacLeod: "I will be happy to meet you, as previously, at the recreation in October". That clearly suggests that there is a continuing association with the sender and the receiver, does it not? Does that, does that?

Smith: If that’s the implication you want to put on it. I mean, I don’t see that I have to assume anything about that letter, because, er, I do not know who this man is. But I would be rather foolish, if I did know what it was, to, to keep it, wouldn’t I?

MacLeod: Well, I think you probably were, as a, a KGB spy. It was a bit careless of you, wasn’t it? You should really have destroyed it.

Smith: … I would have destroyed it, I suppose. But the fact is, I haven’t, which surely indicates that I’m not bothered about that.

MacLeod: Well, you were certainly careless in putting it into the same envelope as the £2,000, and together with the other bits of paper, which were clearly instructions on how to arrive at a certain rendezvous point. We’ll talk about these other bits of paper tomorrow. But, let’s talk about Williams. I find it strange that you’ve got 2 grand, and all these bits of paper that obviously mean something to you, and the £2,000 together?

MacLeod: Well, I’m telling you, I will prove, I will prove, because I had photographers photograph the envelope together with the contents as they were removed. They were found together in the drawer, in your bedroom. What do you think your wife thinks of that, £2,000 stashed away in the drawer.

Smith: Well I, as I said before. I mean, the wife and I have, er, our own financial affairs. I don’t dwell too much on what she spends her money on, and she doesn’t do the same for me. Because we found, when we first set up in married life, we didn’t want, er, to have a lot of arguments over money, so we decided to, er, have a joint account.

MacLeod: So, I suppose she’s got another 2 grand stashed away somewhere else?

Smith: She, she keeps her cash emergency fund, as she will tell you about, I’m sure.

Smith: Well, it may be strange to you, I’m, I’m sure, if you don’t, er, you don’t see it the way I think.

MacLeod: Oh, I think, I think, I think I see it the way you see it. £2,000, what was that for?

Smith: I was, I was thinking of buying something, er, if I hadn’t been made redundant.

MacLeod: I mean, going back to the days of your old chum Victor, that was of course the kind of advice he gave you, was it not.

Smith: No, I would, I would not call Victor - I’m not sure which Victor you’re talking about now - I would not call him a chum.

Smith: I didn’t, I didn’t say that. I would not call him a chum, because I, I, I don’t actually know this man.

MacLeod: Well, I’m putting it to you, that that’s the kind of instruction that you received in your early days, when they were training you.

MacLeod: Instructions were simply this. You, you received your payments in cash, and that you were to invest the money, or rather, correction, spend the money in such a way as not to draw attention to yourself. Am I right?

Smith: No, you’re not right. Nobody instructs me how I should spend my money. I’ve always been very, um, independent about my, my attitude to money. I, I think, er, I’m, I’m rather frugal, and, um, and tend to spend money on the things that I really want, rather than just to spend it. I mean, if, if this man Victor had told me something like that, I don’t think I would have listened to him anyway, because spending money is, um, is about enjoying life, the way I want to enjoy life, not being told ...

MacLeod: Well, maybe, maybe, maybe, um, I should, sort of, re-phrase that question. Not to spend the money, but to, however you use it, to use it wisely.

Smith: Well, I always use money wisely. I mean, if, if he’s offering that advice, then I think ...

MacLeod: I’m not suggesting you should go and spend money, and then draw attention to your lifestyle. That wouldn’t be consistent with the kind of advice that you’ve received from Victor.

Smith: Well, if, if Victor is offering advice, then perhaps I should listen to it, if, er, if you want to bring him here, if you think it would be any good, if he could tell me how to spend my money - but I don’t, um, nobody has told me to spend money in that way.

MacLeod: Not to spend the money, but not to put it into accounts, in such a way as would draw attention to yourself.

Smith: Well, I mean, that, if, if, if that’s what Victor is saying, then perhaps he has a, a good point there. But, er, how that’s, er, associated with my financial affairs, I don’t understand?

MacLeod: Well, I think you perfectly understand Mr Smith. You know exactly what I’m saying. When were you last in France?

Smith: It was a long time ago. Yes, that’s why I’m trying to think when.

Smith: No. It’s, it’s not that I can’t remember, I’m trying to think. You see, I was in France on several occasions, and I’m trying to think when was the last one.

Smith: Not recent times, no. I do remember, yes. Yes, right. The last time I was in France was 1971.

Smith: Yes, sorry, 1981. When my wife and I were travelling around in the car, in Normandy and Brittany.

MacLeod: Ah well, we’ll be even more precise. Let’s try 7th September, 1991?

Smith: Em, I, I, I was, er, going to go to France on a holiday with my wife. But we didn’t go.

Smith: We had, um, well I had booked a ticket to Dieppe from Newhaven, and ...

Smith: Um, my wife became ill, within a few hours of, er, us being due to leave on the boat, and so we had to cancel it. We hadn’t actually booked any accommodation, we were, we were planning on finding something when we got there. But I think the destination, we hadn’t decided that destination, but we thought somewhere in Brittany would be a good place to go at the time. But unfortunately, because we didn’t make the visit, nothing materialised.

MacLeod: So, you didn’t go to, so, so, I’m wrong in saying that you went to Dieppe last September?

Smith: Er, yes, that’s, that’s incorrect. I booked, well, what happened: I, um, I had the ferry ticket, everything was planned. We, we, we were packed up ready to go. I, we were going to take my wife’s car, and put yellow on the lenses of the, um, the, er, of the headlamps, and you can still see those on the, the headlamps now, and a GB sticker on the back. And, er, it was one o’clock, I think, in the morning of, um, was it the 7th you said, if that was the date, it was 1 o’clock in the morning or so, and my wife complained of pains in her abdomen. I had to take her to the hospital, and she was kept in for about 36 hours, I think. I rang the company, er, I think it was on the Sunday. Or maybe it was the Saturday, to say, “we’re not going to make this, er, trip, can I change the date

to the following day, the sailing the next day”. They gave me a reservation, I believe, er, but then we couldn’t make that either, because the doctor recommended she shouldn’t travel. So, I eventually, um, cashed in the ticket, which I didn’t do until, I think, about May or June this year, which, because we were planning, possibly we could go this Spring instead.

MacLeod: Ok. So, your wife will be able to tell me then, that you had made plans to go to Dieppe?

Smith: How could I lie about a thing like that. My wife is in hospital, I actually visited her there in hospital on the 7th.

Smith: That is a downright lie on your behalf, because you know full well, I didn’t go.

Smith: Because that ticket was not used. I refunded it earlier this year, and I, I may still have the receipt somewhere in my flat, to show that I, I got a refund of £75.

Smith: I think it was something like that. They, they, er, took a cancellation fee, so if, if I got the money back on the ticket, I, I couldn’t have used that ticket.

Smith: It was about that, I think, yes. Well, why, why would you suspect that I, I went to France, when I was visiting, visiting my wife in hospital?

MacLeod: I dare say you’d visited your wife in hospital that day. I wouldn’t dispute that. Was it not possible you made a day trip to France?

MacLeod: That you went to France to meet your KGB controller, and that you were paid in francs?

Smith: No, that’s complete fiction. I’m, there’s no truth in, truth in that accusation at all.

Smith: If Victor, if Victor knows that I went to France, then I’d like to see the evidence, because I, my wife would substantiate that I visited her in hospital. I spoke to her on the phone, I think, as well. There’s no way I could have made a day trip to France, and her not knowing about it. I was also in communication with her, um, parents on that, that day and over the weekend. So, I mean, it’s highly unlikely I’d have the time to go to France, if, er, if that’s the accusation.

MacLeod: Are you saying it’s not possible, to go to Dieppe for a day and back?

Beels: Ok. I am concluding this interview. Is there anything else you wish to add or clarify?

Beels: At the end of this interview I will be asking you to sign the seal on the master tape, will you do so?

Beels: You have a form already, explaining your rights of access to the tape, and the time is now 9:16 pm, and I’m stopping the machine.