Person interviewed: Michael John Smith
Place of interview: Paddington Green Police Station
Date of interview: 8th August 1992
Time commenced: 19:13 Time concluded: 19:34
Other persons present: Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod
Detective Sergeant Stephen John Beels
Richard Jefferies (Duty Solicitor)
Beels: This interview is being tape-recorded. I’m Detective Sergeant Stephen Beels, Special Branch, New Scotland Yard. Other officer present …
MacLeod: I am Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod, also from Special Branch, at New Scotland Yard.
Beels: And you are sir …
Smith: My name is Michael Smith of Kingston upon Thames.
Beels: And you are sir …
Jefferies: My name is Richard Jefferies, Duty Solicitor from Tuckers Solicitors.
Beels: We are in Interview Room number 2, at Paddington Green Police Station. At the end of this interview I will give you, sir, a form explaining your rights of access to a copy of the tape. The date is the 8th August 1992, and the time is now 7:13 pm. I must caution you again, sir, that you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be given in evidence. Do you understand?
Smith: Yes.
Beels: Do you agree that the tapes were unsealed in your presence?
Smith: Yes.
Beels: You, you are entitled to free legal, legal advice, and you have your solicitor present with you. Is that correct?
Smith: That’s correct.
MacLeod: Right, er …
Smith: First of all I’d like to put on record. I apologise very much for my behaviour earlier on, right. I was overwrought. I’ve had a very bad day – a lot to put up with – and I do apologise if I’ve inconvenienced anybody, I’ve made, upset anybody. It’s not my normal way, right, but I’ve been put in very unusual circumstances here today. Now, because of the way the interview went in the first part of the session, where matters have been discussed which I didn’t have full knowledge of, and I, I get the feeling that, er, the way the interview was going, I was being, um, led to answer things, that were leading me down paths that I couldn’t see the implications of. I’ve decided to decline to comment any further on any questions that you may have for me. It’s, it’s not that I’m trying to cover anything up, I’m certainly not, but until you reveal further information on your side, I feel that it’s pointless me commenting, and having an endless discussion, which, er, goes round in circles, about trivia as far as I can see, when I wanted to get onto the meat of the case, which I thought was far more serious.
MacLeod: Right, Ok. I understand it then. I perfectly understand that. Well, can you tell me then, um, are you then prepared to discuss, um, something about your background? Can you tell me when you first became involved with the Communist Party of Great Britain?
Smith: No, I don’t think I’d better discuss it. If you want to raise, those sort of matters, that’s been discussed, um, at length, in a Positive Vetting session I had in 1980. I don’t want to comment any further. In fact, they asked me at the time not to, to not talk about it to anybody, so I’m doing that.
MacLeod: Right. Can we talk about, perhaps, your trips abroad?
Smith: My trips abroad, er? I’ve got nothing to hide, and, but I don’t think there’s any point in commenting any further until I’ve got more information.
MacLeod: Well, if you’ve nothing to hide, well tell me …
Smith: Why should I, why should I, why should I discuss these things?
MacLeod: Because you’re here to help, help us.
Smith: I want to help you, but you’re not helping me, I’m afraid. So I, I don’t wish to comment any further.
MacLeod: Right. Ok. Let’s go, let’s go back to today then, shall we?
Smith: Yes.
MacLeod: Can I just, can I …
Smith: You’ve messed up today for me. I’m, um …
MacLeod: Well, listen to what I have to say. I merely asked you a number of questions concerning your activity, from the time you got up this morning to the time that you left home.
Smith: I, I thought I had discussed that at length, and I don’t wish to comment any further on that. I’ve given you the information that I thought you wanted, but I’m not going to give you information which, er, when you’re not prepared to give me the reason for your questioning. I think it would be highly foolish of me, at this stage, to make comments on things that I don’t understand, which you certainly do understand.
MacLeod: Well, I’m putting it to you, that you received a telephone call this morning, from a man called …
Smith: We’ve discussed that. We’ve discussed that. I’ve, I’ve told you exactly what I can tell you.
MacLeod: Right.
Smith: There’s no further comment on that point.
MacLeod: Well, I’m putting it to you that that telephone conversation concerned a man called Victor, and you were on your way to make, er, to meet up with somebody when you left the house this morning.
Smith: That’s untrue, but I don’t want to comment on it anyway. It’s pointless commenting.
MacLeod: Well tell me then …
Smith: No, I’m, I’m not, I’m not going to …
MacLeod: If it’s pointless then. Tell me why it’s pointless?
Smith: I’ve discussed that with you before. I don’t know any Victor. I don’t know any George. I mean, I’m not trying to cover it up. If that’s what you think I went out to do this morning, well you have to draw those conclusions, and present the evidence you think you’ve got, but I can’t comment on something that I have no knowledge of. I’m sorry.
MacLeod: So you’re telling me that you don’t know a man called Victor?
Smith: I told you I knew, er, somebody called Victor. He’s the son of a friend of mine, who is Spanish and lives in Epsom. That’s the only Victor I know, or to my knowledge have known, as far as my memory goes back. I can’t give you any more information than that.
That’s all in the early part of the tape. I see no point in elaborating on something that, when there’s no further information. I’m sorry.
MacLeod: Well, I’m putting it to you that you do know, or you were acquainted with a man called Victor.
Smith: Well then. If you say so, I don’t know if that’s true or not, but, um, I don’t know if I knew a man called Victor. I don’t think I did. How could I comment on something you’re giving me no information about - who this man is, or what he does, or where he lives. I mean, how can I possibly comment on something when I don’t know this man?
MacLeod: I’m putting it to you, that you know a man called Victor.
Smith: I don’t wish to comment any further. I’m sorry.
MacLeod: You know a man called Victor Oshchenko. I’m now showing a photograph, a black and white photograph, to Mr Smith of Victor Oshchenko.
Smith: Who is he?
MacLeod: I want you to tell me?
Beels: This will be exhibit …
MacLeod: MM/1
Smith: I do not know this man.
Jeffries: Mr Smith.
Smith: I, I’ve never seen this man before. How can I possibly say I know him. I certainly wasn’t going to meet him today, because I’ve never met the guy. How can you, …
MacLeod: You’re a liar. He knows you.
Smith: How can you … How does he know me?
MacLeod: You’re going to tell me that.
Smith: I cannot tell you something that I don’t have any information on. Look, you’re sitting there, very cute on giving this information.
MacLeod: That man, that man is with us, and you know as well as I do who that man is. He is with us now.
Smith: With us ...? Who is us?
MacLeod: Just listen to what I have to say. That is the reason that you find yourself in this situation today.
Smith: But that might be so, I mean, maybe, maybe he is the cause of my problems, but …
MacLeod: Well, why should he …
Smith: Well, well, I don’t know. I’ve said I can’t comment on something. This is information which you, you’re springing on me, and you’re expecting me to, to say yes, I know him? No I don’t. I do not know this man. How do I know this man? Who is he?
MacLeod: I want you to tell me when you first met Victor Oshchenko?
Smith: Did I meet him somewhere, by chance?
MacLeod: You know, you know very well you met him. You know very well you met him. You knew him for a number of years.
Smith: I can’t comment. I’m sorry.
MacLeod: You can’t …
Smith: Well, what’s the point in me commenting on this sort of rubbish. I mean, you’re, you’re going to twist it around. You …
MacLeod: There’s nothing been twisted. It’s been …
Smith: Look, I can’t, I can’t comment on this. I’m sorry. I’ve made my point. I, I apologise for being the way I am, because that’s the way I am. I get upset when people upset me.
MacLeod: Who …
Smith: But I can’t ans …, answer questions about things that … How do you expect me to answer questions like that?
MacLeod: Perfectly well. If you knew that man, and I’m suggesting that you do, and you knew him over a period of time.
Smith: Well, if you think you, if you think I knew him, then you tell me where I met him? I don’t know. Did I meet him in a bar? Where? I don’t know. You, you, you’re twisting these things.
MacLeod: He’s been telling us, he’s been telling us about you.
Smith: Has he? Well, perhaps he knows more about me than you do. I don’t know who the guy is, but if you want to make a point of it, yes, Ok, evidence, I don’t know. What do you expect me to say? I’ve said I do not know this man. I do not want to comment any further on this case, until you’ve given me some hard facts on which to base what I’m supposed to have done. I’m sorry, the ball’s in your court.
MacLeod: You were quite keen on tennis at one time, weren’t you?
Smith: No, that’s not true. I’ve played tennis, but I’m not keen on it.
MacLeod: Well, you’ve played tennis?
Smith: Well, I’ve played with my wife. You can ask her.
MacLeod: I want you to know, that we know an awful lot more about you.
Smith: A lot of people know a lot about me.
MacLeod: This man, this man has been telling us about you. Now we’re getting down to the nitty gritty now, and I want you to tell me what your relationship was with Oshchenko.
Smith: All I can say is that he wears a big tie [looking at his photograph]. I mean, what, what do you want me to say? I mean, the guy doesn’t look like anybody I’ve ever seen.
MacLeod: He has accused you of passing, passing classified information to the KGB.
Smith: Oh, that’s crazy!
MacLeod: Is it?
Smith: It, it’s, of course it’s crazy.
MacLeod: Tell me about the …
Smith: Look, if, if you listen to somebody off the street, who accuses somebody ...
MacLeod: Listen to my, listen to what I’m saying to you.
Smith: Look, I can’t. How can you expect … Look, you, you spring this on me. You expect me to come up with some, er, some answers that satisfy you, and I’d love to do that. I want to get out of here as soon as I can. The way you’re presenting this, you’re not helping me. You’re, you’re putting me in a position where you’re springing evidence on me, to try and make me say things about something I don’t even know. I mean, look I, I do not know this guy. I don’t wish to comment any further on, on any relationship you might think I’ve got with him, until you tell me where, where did I meet him? Where, where? Who is he?
MacLeod: Well, that’s what I …
Smith: Where does he come from?
MacLeod: That’s, that’s what I want you to tell me.
Smith: Well, if I’ve met him at a place, actually somewhere, I don’t know.
MacLeod: Why, why should he, why should he name you Mr Smith? Why should he …
Smith: I’d like to know that too. Yes, how does he …
MacLeod: Well, that’s what we’re here to establish.
Smith: Has he got my name from somewhere?
MacLeod: You tell me?
Smith: I, I don’t need to, because I don’t know. If you want me to, to string you a pack of lies, to make your case ...
MacLeod: I don’t want you to ...
Smith: Well, that’s what I think you’re trying to do, I’m sorry. I don’t want to get involved in this. I said, I don’t want to comment any further, and you, you don’t seem to, to believe that. I mean, I’m not commenting now, I’m just giving you, you the chit-chat, and ...
MacLeod: You deny, you deny knowing this man?
Smith: Of course I do.
MacLeod: I’m saying you’re a liar.
Smith: Well, where is he? Get him in here, and we’ll, we’ll have it out.
MacLeod: You’re lying. You’re lying through your teeth. You’re pretty good at lying aren’t you?
Smith: I don’t think so.
MacLeod: Well, you lied when you filled in your vetting application for Thorn EMI, didn’t you, about your past Communist Party connections. Am I right, or am I wrong?
Smith: I don’t know, I ...
MacLeod: Of course you know.
Smith: I’m not going to comment on …
MacLeod: You know well now, that you’re lying through your teeth.
Smith: Look, if you’re going to drag the past up, I’m going to have, to have time to sort things out, and what happened.
MacLeod: No you don’t.
Smith: How do I remember back, you’re talking about 15 years ago.
MacLeod: You can remember your past connections with the Communist Party. Yes or no?
Smith: I don’t have to talk about that, because that’s covered already by my Positive Vetting.
MacLeod: Yes, but this is not a Positive Vetting enquiry.
Smith: I’m not going to discuss it with you. You are not members of the Security Forces. I’m not obliged to mention anything to you.
MacLeod: You are obliged to answer all the questions Mr Smith.
Smith: I think I’m in my rights in saying ...
MacLeod: You are not.
Smith: They told me not to discuss it with anybody, and that’s what I’m doing.
MacLeod: You can take it from me, I am perfectly entitled to put these questions to you.
Smith: I don’t think you are.
MacLeod: I…
Smith: Show it to me in writing then.
MacLeod: I’m not here …
Smith: I’m sorry, I’m not going to discuss something with you, about something which, er. I’m being put in an embarrassing position here, discussing somebody I don’t know, about things that might have happened 15 years ago, and you want me to discuss what, what I talked about in private to a, a Security Officer. I’m sorry I can’t do that.
MacLeod: Yes you can.
Smith: No I can’t.
MacLeod: Because it’s …
Smith: I’m not, I’m not refusing to discuss it, but you get a Security Officer who has the clearance, the, er ...
MacLeod: I have that clearance.
Smith: I don’t think you have the clearance.
MacLeod: Well, I’m not asking whether you think or not, I’m telling you.
Smith: I, I …
MacLeod: I’m not going to …
Smith: I, I do not work on verbals. I’m sorry.
MacLeod: We’re not, we’re not going to sort of fudge the issue here. I want you to answer my questions concerning your employment at Thorn EMI.
Smith: Look, my employment is between me and my employers, and if you want to ...
MacLeod: The position that you are in at the moment is a matter for discussion here and now, Mr Smith.
Smith: I don’t think it is, I’m sorry.
MacLeod: Well, I think it is, and you’ll be here as long as it takes me to get to the bottom of this.
Smith: Ok. We’ll stay here as long as you like, but I don’t wish to comment on things that you are not being fair about. I’m sorry.
MacLeod: Fair. Am I being unreasonable.
Smith: I think you are.
MacLeod: Asking you about your past connections with the Communist Party. Are you denying that you were ever a communist?
Smith: Look …
MacLeod: Are you denying it?
Smith: I didn’t, I’ve said I’ve got no comment to make on it.
MacLeod: You’ve got no comment to make.
Smith: That’s all covered …
MacLeod: But you did lie before about it.
Smith: I’m not commenting on that. That’s covered by the Official Secrets Act, and my discussions with people in private. I’m sorry.
MacLeod: That is a matter for me.
Smith: I’m, I’m …
MacLeod: I’m leading this investigation, and I want to find out from you.
Smith: You can say what you like.
MacLeod: Listen, I’ll ask the questions.
Smith: Until you show me in writing, something that says you have the right to ...
MacLeod: I’m not here to establish my, er, security clearance with you. I am telling you ...
Smith: Well, I, I know where I stand.
MacLeod: Mr Jefferies will have to accept that I have the necessary ...
Smith: Would you accept something verbal? I, I do not accept a verbal, er, er ...
MacLeod: You’re going to have to accept it.
Smith: Well I’m sorry, we’ll end the interview now. I cannot accept what you’re saying. I’m sorry. You do not have clearance to discuss my security clearance. I’m sorry.
MacLeod: Have you ever discussed your work anywhere else, Mr Smith, when you were working in EMI. Have you ever discussed the work you were involved in with anybody outside the company?
Smith: Well, what aspects of my work are you talking about?
MacLeod: Well, I want you to tell me.
Smith: I talked about the working conditions, the things ...
MacLeod: We’re not talking about the working conditions, we’re talking about the sensitive project that you may have been involved in.
Smith: You know as well as I do, that you cannot discuss these things outside work, except with people who are cleared to that level of security clearance. I know that and you know that.
MacLeod: So, what you’re saying is that perhaps you might not even discuss it with your wife, for example.
Smith: Well, I think if you ask her you’ll find out. Why should I tell you that. You can find out from her.
MacLeod: What, that you’ve never discussed work concerning the ...
Smith: I’ve discussed work, but I didn’t say I discuss, er, secrets. I don’t think that’s for discussion with my wife or anybody.
MacLeod: I don’t think it’s fair for discussion with your wife, but you, you certainly discussed it with your wife.
Smith: What did I discuss with my wife?
MacLeod: You’ve discussed the work that you were involved in, in Thorn EMI, with your wife. She’s told us. You’re telling me that you’ve got a security clearance, you’re not prepared to talk to me, but you’re prepared to talk to your wife. That doesn’t get any better.
Smith: Look, those words … What I talked to my wife about is between my wife and I. Are you accusing her …
MacLeod: What I’m saying …
Smith: Are you accusing her of being involved in anything like this.
MacLeod: I’m not accusing anybody. What I’m saying to you is that you were quite prepared to discuss with your wife, the kind of work that you were involved in at Thorn EMI, but why should that be any different with anyone else? If you’re prepared to speak to your wife about it, why not somebody else, like the KGB for example.
Smith: KGB?
MacLeod: Yes, the KGB.
Smith: I don’t know anybody in the KGB. I’m sorry.
MacLeod: You’re a liar.
Smith: Am I?
MacLeod: Yes.
Smith: Then who do I know in the KGB?
MacLeod: That man. Victor Oshchenko.
Smith: I, I don’t know him. If he’s the Victor you’re thinking, you’ve been mentioning in the earlier discussion we had, I’ve no way of knowing if that’s that man or somebody else. Perhaps I don’t know him as Victor. I don’t know. I don’t know this guy. Who is he?
MacLeod: I’ve told you who he is
Smith: No, you haven’t told me who he is.
MacLeod: I’ve told you that is the man you knew as Victor Oshchenko.
Smith: Oshchenko.
MacLeod: Yes.
Smith: But I don’t know anybody called Oshchenko. It’s not an, an English name. I don’t know that person. If this man has been spreading lies about me, to try and get me in trouble, to get himself off the hook, then I want to meet him and have this out with him. Look, we’re going to get nowhere like this. I don’t wish to comment on these things, until the facts are on the table. What did I do, when did I do it. If you can’t come up with that then, then I need to, er, sort a few things out at home. I don’t need to be messed about like this. I’ve told you I don’t wish to comment on things until you, you come clean with what it is you’re charging me with.
MacLeod: Right. Let’s, er, let’s just change tactics for a moment, shall we. Can we just have, er, a sort of look at, you, a recap on your sort of background. You are …
Smith: I don’t wish to discuss my background with you, I’m sorry. Why should I?
MacLeod: Have you got something to hide?
Smith: Of course I haven’t.
MacLeod: Well, in that case, why should you feel so reticent about talking about your background?
Smith: Because I’m not feeling in the mood right now.
MacLeod: Well, I don’t think you’re really in a position to dictate, whether you’re in a mood or not, to discuss matters that are highly relevant to this investigation.
Smith: Isn’t that for me to decide how I feel. Look, I don’t wish to comment. We’re getting in the same argument as we did before. I’m sorry, I apologise for this developing the way it has done, but I don’t like your interviewing technique - I’m sorry - and I don’t like the sort of questioning you’re having on me, when you’ve given me no time to, to think what I should answer. It’s, it’s all coming out of the blue, who this guy is. I mean, you suddenly put him on the table, and say I’m supposed to know him. What do you expect me to say? I’m not stupid.
MacLeod: You do know him.
Smith: But I think you’re taking me for stupid, and I’m not stupid.
Smith: So I’m not going to comment on this guy. Whoever he might be, it’s for you to present the facts and I’ll, I’ll discuss it when you come up with them.
MacLeod: So, what you’re telling me is, you’ve never met this man. You’ve never met Victor Oshchenko.
Smith: Look, let’s just say no comment. I mean, what’s the point of beating about the bush. No comment.
MacLeod: Right. Does it concern you that he’s come across.
Smith: Across from where?
MacLeod: That he’s defected.
Smith: Defected from where?
MacLeod: Don’t play silly games, Mr Smith.
Smith: Look …
MacLeod: You know who he is.
Smith: I don’t know what you’re talking about.
MacLeod: That man has fingered you. He has …
Smith: But why has he fingered me?
MacLeod: He’s fingered you, because he was your controller.
Smith: My controller? Nobody controls me except my wife.
MacLeod: Can I just talk about the time that you were, er, involved in trade union affairs.
Smith: No comment.
MacLeod: Why? Is there something about this that might embarrass you?
Smith: No comment.
MacLeod: Why did you join Thorn EMI?
Smith: No comment.
MacLeod: Does that cause you something of discomfort?
Smith: No comment.
MacLeod: I’m going to talk about this man.
Smith: You might talk about him. I’m not talking about him, because I, I don’t know him.
MacLeod: Yes you do. Yes you do.
Smith: Go, go ahead then. Mention him and see what I’ve got to say, because I, I don’t know what I can say about him, and you, you are calling the tune obviously.
MacLeod: I’m putting it to you, that the reason that you left your home today was to make, make a meeting with a man called George.
Smith: George? Look we discussed this before. I do not know a George. I’ve no comment on that.
MacLeod: Who was going to speak to you about Victor.
Smith: Victor who?
MacLeod: Victor Oshchenko. The man I’m talking about. The man whose photograph is in front of you here.
Smith: I don’t think that was what the conversation was about at all. I’m sorry.
MacLeod: Are you saying …
Smith: Look …
MacLeod: Just, let me finish. Let me finish. Are you saying that the telephone conversation this morning by this man, so called, this man so called George, er, that was, er, there was no reference to a Victor?
Smith: No, you said you thought there was somebody called Victor. I don’t think I mentioned him. Maybe there was, but I said his accent was bad, and I didn’t ...
MacLeod: And you couldn’t, you couldn’t, I see. Well, I can prove that the gist of that telephone conversation this morning concerned Victor, and you know well who Victor was. That was the reason you left so promptly to make the meeting.
Smith: Promptly?
MacLeod: What time did you receive the telephone call at?
Smith: I said it was about, I don’t know, about 10 to 9, I think.
MacLeod: What time did you go for your newspaper?
Smith: I think it was about 25 past 9, or something. It was quite late.
MacLeod: So it was just an ordinary Sunday morning for you?
Smith: Sunday? It’s Saturday.
MacLeod: Saturday, yes, Saturday morning out to get the, the newspaper, and ...
Smith: Well, I’ve got a particular reason. I’ve, I’ve lost my job, if you don’t know, and I’ve been trying to, er, to look through newspapers; get, get advertisements, er, and also I was interested in the Olympics yesterday, because I, I missed, I was too tired to ….
MacLeod: Let’s forget the Olympics.
Smith: It’s, it’s very important, it’s very important to the matter, if you ... We, er, we went down to the coast yesterday, and, er, I was too tired to watch the Olympics when I got back, and I’m very interested in the Olympics. So I went to get the paper particularly to see who won the steeple-chase.
MacLeod: Right, Ok. Let’s forget that. Let’s forget the newspaper. Let’s talk about the journey out this morning.
Smith: Look, I don’t want to comment any more on that. I’ve, we’ve said so much on the first tape. It’s just, you know, people are going to get the impression that we’re paranoiac about this, and I don’t think it’s worth all this fuss.
MacLeod: I think, I think it is.
Smith: I don’t think so. There’s nothing in, in that earlier tape that could possibly be of any interest to you or me. You might think so, but I don’t. You cannot keep looking at me like that.
MacLeod: I can’t understand …
Smith: We, we just need to sort out what is this all about. Can we put some cards on the table, and we can go away and sort this out.
MacLeod: Well, I’m certainly not going to put all my cards on the table at this time.
Smith: Well, what do you expect me to do, to, to speak a load of garbage.
MacLeod: Because I expect you, I expect you to be honest and truthful.
Smith: I am being honest.
MacLeod: No, you’re being deceitful.
Smith: Oh, thank you, thank you very much.
MacLeod: And you’ve been lying.
Smith: Look, I can’t comment on that. This is absolutely ridiculous!
MacLeod: It’s not ridiculous.
Smith: This is a farce, and I don’t want to be involved in this sort of farce, so let’s end the interview now.
MacLeod: No.
Smith: No comment.
MacLeod: Listen, we’ve got enquiries to carry out. We’ll continue these enquiries as long as it takes. You’re here to help us with these enquiries.
Smith: I want to help you, but you’re putting me in a very awkward position, by asking me questions that, that are aimed at getting information from me that I, I can’t see the reason for it. You’ve, you’ve got me under, er, er, scrutiny for something, and I don’t know what it is. Why should I discuss anything with you when, when you’re being like this. My solicitor …
MacLeod: The question is …
Smith: … and I have discussed this before, and we wanted to find out some facts so that we could know how to answer them, but you’re not giving us those facts, and if you don’t give us the facts, I mean, I can, I can disregard this as being a waste of time.
MacLeod: Right. I, I can establish, I can prove evidentially that you received a telephone call this morning from a man called George.
Smith: How can you prove I received a telephone call?
MacLeod: I can prove that.
Smith: I don’t think you can prove that.
MacLeod: I can prove that you received a telephone call …
Smith: If my wife talked to you about it, and I’ve talked to you about it, that’s the only way you can prove that it happened. Isn’t it?
MacLeod: That’s for you to find out. I’m ending this interview now. The time is …
Beels: The time is 6:34. Is there anything else you wish to add or clarify?
Jefferies: It is 7:34.
Smith: There’s nothing to clarify.
Beels: I beg your pardon. I’ve been corrected. It’s 7:34.
Smith: There’s absolutely nothing to clarify.
Beels: At the end of this interview, I will be asking you to sign the seal and master tape. Will you do so?
Smith: Yes.
Beels: You already have a form, and your solicitor has the form 987 explaining your rights of access. I am now switching off the machine.