Person interviewed: Michael John Smith
Place of interview: Paddington Green Police Station
Date of interview: 11th August 1992
Time commenced: 20:23 Time concluded: 20:51
Other persons present: Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod
Detective Sergeant Stephen John Beels
Richard Jefferies (Duty Solicitor)
Beels: This interview is being tape-recorded. I am Detective Sergeant Stephen Beels, Special Branch, New Scotland Yard. The other officer with me is ...
MacLeod: I am Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod from Special Branch at New Scotland Yard.
Beels: And you are sir ...
Smith: Mr Michael Smith.
Beels: And you are sir ...
Jefferies: Richard Jefferies, solicitor from Tuckers Solicitors.
Beels: We are in the Interview Room No. 2 at Paddington Green Police Station. At the end of this interview, Mr Smith, I will give you a form explaining your rights of access to a copy of the tape. The date is the 11th August 1992, and the time by my watch is 8:23 pm. I must caution you Mr Smith, that you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be
given in evidence. Do you understand the caution?
Smith: Yes I do.
Beels: Do you agree that the tapes were unsealed in your presence?
Smith: I do.
MacLeod: Thank you Mr Smith. Can I just talk about last Friday?
Smith: Last Friday, yes.
MacLeod: Yes, yes. Is it right, that you and your wife Pam, went down to the South Coast?
Smith: Thatís true.
MacLeod: Did you, how long prior to going down there had you arranged it?
Smith: We arranged it, I think, it was Tuesday, because we, we were planning on either going Wednesday or Friday. But, I think something came up on Wednesday that she couldnít make it for, the reason came up that she couldnít go on Wednesday.
MacLeod: Right. Ok.
Smith: Maybe she wasnít well. I Ö
MacLeod: So you went on Friday. Did you particularly want to go on Friday?
Smith: I had no reason, in fact I was quite happy with Friday, or Wednesday. I didnít mind. I was prepared to go any day of the week, except for Thursday, when I had the Induction Course. But as it turned out, Friday was the day we went.
MacLeod: And you were quite happy with that arrangement?
Smith: Happy? I had no reason to feel unhappy about it.
MacLeod: Your wife has told us, that you had a row on Friday, because you didnít want to go to Brighton, or to the South Coast.
Smith: It wasnít really a row. I mean, when I say I was happy to go. I was happy to go, but we were disagreeing on the route, as to where we were going to go. And my point was, Iím not sure where she wants to go. We were, all my wife wanted to do was to go by the sea, and she likes the seaside, she likes the beach, to wander around the seaside town. As far as Iím concerned I, it doesnít particularly bother me or not, but ...
MacLeod: But was she being untruthful, when she said that you had a row, and that you didnít want to go away for the day?
Smith: No, I, I, which day is she saying we had a row, because I canít ...?
MacLeod: Sheís saying that you didnít want to go to the South Coast on Friday, and that you had a row.
Smith: What, a row on Friday?
Smith: Ah, so weíre talking about the Friday morning scenario.
No, no. The reason I wasnít sure, because we had talked about it earlier in the week, and there had been some, not disagreements, but uncertainty as to when we were going, and she was a bit concerned, that perhaps we wouldnít go at all. On the Friday I, because I hadnít been there for a long time, I said, ďwhy donít we go to Hayling IslandĒ, and she said she didnít particularly want to go there. So I said ďwell, do you want to go to Littlehampton, or BognorĒ? We decided we wouldnít go to Worthing or Brighton, because they were less pleasant places, and there was a ...
MacLeod: Iím just answering a knock to the door, itís now 8:27.
Beels: So, carry on Mr Smith I, Iím listening.
Smith: So we ended up in Bognor Regis, and then travelled on to Littlehampton, and there was no, we ended the day quite happily. The reason for the row, I mean, I donít recollect it as being a row as such, I mean, we had a disagreement.
Beels: Mr MacLeod has just returned to his seat. Nobody else has entered the interview room in the last minute. Ok Mr Smith, sorry.
MacLeod: Sorry about that interruption.
Beels: Yes, so you went to ...
Smith: We went to Bognor Regis.
Beels: Bognor Regis.
Smith: First we went to Bognor Regis, and secondly we went to Littlehampton.
Beels: But you only argued about the destination you were going, or you wanted to go to. You, you, did you not row about the fact that you were reluctant to go out that day, anyway, to the coast?
Smith: She may have, I think the difference of opinion might have been, she assumed that that was what I didnít want to go, that wasnít in fact the case. I wanted her to be a bit more specific about where she wanted to go, because she was the one who suggested the seaside. It didnít particularly bother me.
MacLeod: But, when it was originally mooted that you would go to the seaside, on the Tuesday of that week, you were originally going to go on the Wednesday, did you say, and the Friday.
Smith: Wednesday or a Friday. I donít recollect now why we didnít go on Wednesday. There was some reason which came up, either my wife wasnít feeling so good, or something of that nature, I donít recollect what.
MacLeod: And at that juncture, is it right to say that you were still happy with arrangements to go on Friday?
Smith: I was fully expecting to go on Friday, yes.
MacLeod: And your wife was quite happy to go on the Friday?
Smith: Yes. I thought, well I assumed she was. I mean, she didnít say she wasnít.
MacLeod: What was it that caused the row between you and your wife, when you said that you didnít want to go to the seaside, or go to the South Coast on Friday?
Smith: It must have, obviously, it meant more to her than it did to me,
because I donít recollect it being a blazing row. I mean, there was no, there might have been a bit of unpleasantness, because we ended up going later than we intended. I was more angry about, letís get moving, because I did say I would rather get moving quickly, so we could be down there by lunchtime. I didnít really want to be ...
MacLeod: She tells us you didnít want to go at all. That you didnít want to go away on Friday.
Smith: She actually said that?
MacLeod: That you didnít want to. It didnít suit you, for whatever reason, to go to the seaside last Friday.
Smith: Iím not calling my wife a liar, but ...
MacLeod: No, no, I mean.
Smith: If there was any, you must realise that rows donít develop just from one specific thing. There may have been some general, I, I think we had, something had been brewing up over the week, anyway. We were having a few off words with each other, and my wife always takes too long to get ready in the morning, to put her makeup on, and these sort of things. And Iím always anxious to get on with things, and I get impatient, particularly when I had made the point I would rather we get off early, so weíre down there by about 12 or one oíclock. And to leave late, and, in fact, we were leaving, I think, about, certainly past eleven, I think it was nearer twelve, and that upset me. So, I was in a bit of a funny mood, I think, by the time we left, because I wanted to get away earlier than that, and she may have taken that as we were having
a row - I donít.
MacLeod: Well, there was a disagreement, whether it was a row or not.
Smith: I think that the only ...
MacLeod: You had a disagreement.
Smith: Ok. Probably the more pertinent thing, I think, was that I had suggested we go to Hayling Island. She suggested Littlehampton, I think. I said, ďwell do you want to go somewhere in between, like WitteringĒ, or I, I just kept putting things to her, to expect her to come back and say ďletís go thereĒ. She didnít, so I, I drove at quite fast pace to make up time, down towards Brighton, and then we meandered off down to Bognor, having got lost en route. Because I didnít actually have the map in the car, I just did it on my own.
Smith: Because I know the route fairly well.
MacLeod: Ok. Letís come back to Thursday then, shall we.
MacLeod: The time that you spent in Harrow.
MacLeod: You arrived in Harrow, according to what youíve told me in the previous interviews, around twelve oíclock, was it? You left
Basingstoke between half ten and eleven.
Smith: Half ten.
MacLeod: Between half past ten in the morning, and eleven.
Smith: And eleven, nearer eleven, Iíd say.
MacLeod: That would have, and it would have taken you roughly about what. How long do you reckon would it take you to get to Harrow on the Hill?
Smith: It would have been at least an hour, but, I mean, I didnít go directly to Harrow on the Hill. I went through, through Harrow, and parked on the outskirts of Harrow. Well, I didnít park in Harrow on the Hill.
MacLeod: Yes of course. Yeah, yeah. Correction, what I meant was, when you left Basingstoke, you went to Harrow. When I say Harrow, Iím talking about Harrow Town, you went direct there, and ...
Smith: Yes, directly there.
MacLeod: And you went to W.H. Smithís to make a purchase?
Smith: Yes. Yeah.
MacLeod: Didnít find what you wanted, and you went then and bought a newspaper, and then you had a walk around.
MacLeod: And then you had a saunter up around Harrow on the Hill, round the Public School, the famous Public School.
Smith: Well, not really round the Public School.
MacLeod: Well, no, but what I mean, is the vicinity.
Smith: Itís the top of the hill, where itís quite interesting. It has a good view from up there.
MacLeod: Yeah, sure.
Smith: And then I came back down, and I ...
MacLeod: Did you, did you sort of spend any time, sort of, if you like, loitering?
MacLeod: Well, I say, did you stop.
Smith: Well, I think I sat on a bench, and took in the sunshine.
MacLeod: Yeah. Ok. And how long did you sit on the bench for?
Smith: About ten minutes, I think. I was quite happy just to, because it hadnít been very good, the weather hadnít been very good all week, and I was quite happy to do that. I didnít see anything wrong in that.
MacLeod: No, no, not at all. Iím going to produce some black and white photographs now, exhibit KK/1, they contain a number of black and white photographs. I would like to show Mr Smith, if we can just go through it together, and tell me you recognise this as being Harrow on the Hill?
Smith: Yes, thatís Harrow on the Hill.
MacLeod: Yeah. Were you anywhere near here, in this vicinity?
Smith: Well, I think, I believe that would have been the way up to Harrow on the Hill, I believe.
MacLeod: Right. Ok. The wall that you sat on, is it anywhere round here?
Smith: No, I donít think I sat anywhere there.
MacLeod: No. Ok. Letís, letís go onto another one then. Was that where you sat?
Smith: No, I didnít sit there, no.
Beels: That is the third page, is it Sir?
MacLeod: Yes. Iím just coming, Iíll be showing that rest in the moment.
MacLeod: Is it anywhere near here?
Smith: No, I donít recognise that particular location.
Smith: No Ö .No, I didnít sit anywhere there. Ö No.
MacLeod: This is another one from the back of St Maryís Church, Harrow on the Hill. Now, you didnít hang about anywhere there?
Smith: I donít recollect being in any of those places.
MacLeod: No. Right. I will return to this exhibit in just a moment. So, if you can just describe to me then, where it was that you sat down and spent ten minutes, having a rest enjoying the sun.
Smith: I believe it was somewhere near the church, either in the church yard, or, um, well I walked around, I wasnít in one particular location all the time.
MacLeod: No. But you did say you had a sit down for about a few minutes, ten minutes?
Smith: Yes, because it was a sunny day.
MacLeod: Sure. Were you expecting to meet anyone?
Smith: No, why should I?
MacLeod: Well, what took you to Harrow on the Hill that day?
Smith: I explained. I went there for a particular reason, because I did believe I could get this magazine there, and Iím very anxious to buy that magazine. Harrow is a, is a place I travel to from time to time, anyway. I was just out for the day. I mean, I donít have anything to hide on that front.
MacLeod: Why go to Harrow on the Hill? Why not go to Bognor?
Smith: Well, I didnít have the time. I mean, I was, I planned to meet my wife later that day, and I decided just to drive, I mean.
MacLeod: Nothing took you to Harrow on the Hill, other than just a spur of the moment fancy, to go to Harrow on the Hill and buy a computer, or a magazine?
Smith: No, no. I was, if I had bought that magazine ...
Smith: Ö I would have it to show, but unfortunately ...
MacLeod: But that was the purpose of your going to Harrow Town?
Smith: That was the prime purpose.
MacLeod: Yeah, sure. And then you decided you were going to take a, sort of, a walk around the area?
Smith: Well, letís get back to the first point. I purchased the newspapers. I had a reason in purchasing the newspapers, to look for job interviews, get a job appointments which ...
MacLeod: But you already had the offer of an appointment, surely, down at Basingstoke?
Smith: Well, thatís a temporary job. It expires in 3 months, and I can still go for interviews, on the basis I take a day off and donít get paid, and ...
MacLeod: Yes, I know. But I understand that, from your wife, that you were planning to go to New Zealand in about 3 months.
Smith: Thatís quite correct.
MacLeod: So why go look for another job then, if you have a temporary job.
Smith: Well, if the New Zealand job, because New Zealand is, is a country of high unemployment as well, if we didnít manage to be successful in obtaining employment in New Zealand, Iíd still be living here, and Iíd have no job. So my, my view on this was to put out all options, I have a temporary job for 3 months. If the New Zealand position didnít change, I could possibly have a permanent job into the future, which might keep me here. But there was nothing strange about that. Iím keeping all my options open. I think thatís quite a reasonable thing to do.
MacLeod: Yes. I mean, it would be reasonable to keep your options open. But Iím rather curious, that having just been for a, sort of, induction course, call it what you like, down at the company in Basingstoke, you make your way directly to Harrow on the Hill to buy a magazine. Then you ...
Smith: No. I think thatís mis-leading.
MacLeod: Iím sorry thatís plain. Thatís clear.
Smith: I was driving down the M3, on the way home. And there came a point, where I could turn off on the M25, and I was quite happy driving along. I was feeling rather elated at having finished this course, knowing I was going to the job, my immediate future was secure. So I felt quite good about that, and I feel quite happy driving, and I was going along at a happy pace and enjoying being out.
Smith: If Iíd gone straight home, I wouldnít have had much to do. Because I was on holiday, I didnít have really anything, any plans for that day.
MacLeod: But why Harrow on the Hill?
Smith: I explained. Harrow, I know, has a good W.H. Smithís that does have good stocks of this magazine.
MacLeod: But there must be other places, nearer to your home, where you could have purchased that magazine from W.H.Smithís.
Smith: I explained to you. W.H. Smithís in Kingston stocks it occasionally, but ...
MacLeod: There are other W.H.Smithís, nearer to Kingston than Harrow, I would suggest?
Smith: Thereís some. Well, I donít know of any that are as large as the one in Harrow. Itís a particularly large W.H. Smithís. The one in Kingston is ...
MacLeod: Come, come, come, come, come on.
Smith: Thatís, Iím sorry, I know, I know the facts.
MacLeod: You make your way to Harrow. You went there for a specific purpose.
Smith: I know the facts of why I was there. I know that I can not obtain that magazine in Kingston, unless Iím very lucky to pick up the 3 or 4 copies they seem to order. Harrow W.H. Smithís must order at least 10 or 15 copies of this magazine. They always have them over at the end of the month, and I saw the July issue there in W.H. Smithís.
MacLeod: So you, just for a minute, just so I can get clear in my mind, the importance of this magazine. What was the magazine called?
Smith: The magazine was called "Keyboard", which is an American magazine. Itís particularly good on electronic music equipment, and there was a series of articles I was following on drum pattern programming, something else Iíve forgotten. There are a series of articles in there, and also reviews of new equipment, and musical technology techniques.
MacLeod: So itís your hobby?
Smith: Yes, itís my hobby. In fact, itís the one magazine Iíve tried to order through my newsagent, and being American, and an import, which there is no proper outlet in this country, the only other way is to subscribe and pay over the odds for the magazine. So, as I say, Iím not normal perhaps, a normal person wouldnít go that far out of the way.
MacLeod: But surely if, but surely if they stock it in Harrow on the Hill, W.H. Smithís in Kingston would be able to provide it for you, or order it.
Smith: I donít particularly want to place a Standing Order, so Iíve always got to go back to the same place.
MacLeod: Youíve just told me thatís a magazine that you enjoy taking?
Smith: Right. Well, I, I ...
MacLeod: You, you, you take, you go out of your way, by something like, I would suggest, 17, 18 miles, at the very least.
Smith: Whatís that, itís half a gallon of petrol.
MacLeod: To go and buy a magazine. I, Iím telling you, that you went to Harrow on the Hill for a different purpose.
Smith: No. I went to Harrow ...
MacLeod: Iím telling you you ...
Smith: I didnít. Letís not beat about the bush. I went to Harrow, not Harrow on the hill.
MacLeod: Yes, you went to Harrow on the Hill.
Smith: Harrow was my main destination.
MacLeod: Harrow was your main destination, but you ultimately went to Harrow on the Hill.
Smith: Because I had time to kill, and I thought I hadnít been here for a while, Iíll take a stroll. I, I donít see that as being unusual?
MacLeod: Well, I think that some of your behaviour, over the last, well, from what I know of your behaviour, is certainly unusual, by any standard.
Smith: If you look at my behaviour over perhaps a decade, or more, youíll probably think Iím a crank, but Iím the way I am, and I ...
MacLeod: Well, I certainly think youíre unusual, I would concede that. Come back to Harrow on the Hill again, I want to know where it was that you sat on the wall?
Smith: I did not sit on a wall.
MacLeod: I thought you said, well did you rest yourself? I thought you
took on in the sun?
Smith: No I sat down on a park ...
MacLeod: On a bench?
Smith: Bench, yes, by the church.
MacLeod: I beg your pardon, you sat on a bench. Where? At the Church?
Smith: There is a bench at the church, and luckily itís exposed in the sun, which is a good location. I didnít particularly choose that bench, I might add, I was just walking at the top of the hill, and being hot, and I did feel a little bit tired, I sat down.
MacLeod: Right. Ok. Fair enough. Iím going to show you some documents now, that were found in your bedroom.
MacLeod: In the envelopes that contained the £2,000. Do you remember the £2,000, and ...
Smith: Yes I do remember the £2,000.
MacLeod: Ö the £50 bank notes, new bank notes. Now, Iím going to introduce them individually. This is JS/41. Itís a plain piece of A4 lined paper, with writing on one side. Iím going to show it to Mr Smith. Can you tell me is that your handwriting?
Smith: It looks like my handwriting, yes.
MacLeod: Right. Ok. Now, what Iím interested in is the significance of this. Can you tell me how this came to be in the envelope containing the £2,000. Just take your time, have a look, Iíd just like you to talk me through this.
Smith: It doesnít mean much to me, no.
MacLeod: Well, perhaps you ...
Smith: How, how it got, can I, I tried to explain earlier on, that when, on my last day at work, I had a few items in my filing cabinet, I just stuffed them into a bag, and ...
Smith: Ö they were all collected together with, with the money, and they got in the drawer together, thatís why they were together. Now Ö
MacLeod: I understand all of that. Just talk me through this, what does that say on the top there. You can read your writing better than I can. Will you read it for me please.
Smith: I canít, actually. Lou, Lou I think is a friend of mine.
MacLeod: Go on.
Smith: Lou is a tennis teacher.
MacLeod: Right. Ok.
Smith: My interest with Lou is not to do with tennis, because he is a friend.
MacLeod: So youíre not interested in tennis.
Smith: No, no. Iím not interested in tennis.
MacLeod: How come youíve got 4 tennis rackets in your house?
Smith: Four tennis rackets? I donít have 4 tennis rackets. I do find that ...
MacLeod: There were 4 tennis rackets found in your ...
Smith: Four tennis rackets?
MacLeod: Iíll produce them, Iíll produce them. Right. Just talk me through this, anyway, I mean thatís just an aside. I would like to know what the significance of this is?
Smith: I, I canít remember.
Beels: What does it say. Read it through to us.
Smith: ďLouís tennis locationsĒ.
MacLeod: Yes, what does that relate to?
Smith: My friend Lou. I wanted to know where he did his tennis, because he was somebody I contact. I hadnít had any contact with Lou for over a year. I can be more specific than that, I havenít contacted Lou since June last year.
MacLeod: Right. Ok. Now who is Lou?
Smith: Lou is, er, my connection with Lou is that he plays a guitar, a flamenco guitar, and our interest together is flamenco.
MacLeod: Tell me his full name. Louís full name then please.
Smith: I donít actually know his full name.
MacLeod: I thought you said he was a friend of yours.
Smith: Well, heís, heís a funny character, and, as I say, my connection with him is purely through flamenco. But he has been involved in criminal activity in the past. I donít particularly want to, to be involved.
MacLeod: I, Iím not interested in that. I just want to know who Lou is? Iím not interested in that.
Smith: Lou is, I think heís of Irish extraction. He plays tennis, or teaches tennis professionally. I think heís a member of the Lawn Tennis Association. But he does that to earn money. His main hobby has been, at least up until last year, playing the guitar for dance classes. I think he has taught a bit of guitar at the Spanish Guitar Centre in London.
MacLeod: Right. Where is the, see, itís the top line, that reads ďLouís tennis locationĒ. Where is his tennis location? You still havenít told me where that is? Where does he actually coach?
Smith: I asked, I was trying to ask Lou ďwhere do you play tennis Lou, if I want to come along and see you some dayĒ, because Iíd
never seen him play tennis before.
MacLeod: But you still havenít, I mean, you still havenít told me who Lou is?
Smith: Ok. Lou, the name he has given me, and Iím not convinced itís correct, is Louis Anton. Now, I know, the Anton stands for Anthony.
MacLeod: Yes. Right. Letís get to the point.
Smith: So his second, his last name is Rooney, which is I think showing his Irish connection.
MacLeod: So where are the tennis locations, thatís referred to here?
Smith: Well, I think Iíve said theyíre Parliament Hill.
MacLeod: So, thatís all part of this here. Parliament Hill, whatís that? I canít read your writing, you tell me.
Smith: Well, I canít see that, itís too far for me.
MacLeod: Yes, I would rather you read it out, because what does that say on the right hand side of that page?
Smith: Parliament Hill. Ah, right. ďParliament hill, his card at changing room, groundsman told he can have cuts on any jobs he passes onĒ.
MacLeod: Can you explain to me what that refers to?
Smith: Lou has an arrangement with the groundsman, that if he gets any jobs, the groundsman will get a cut in it. So, by keeping Louís card in the groundsmanís hut, when somebody comes along and says, can I have some tennis lessons, the groundsman knows, if he puts the man onto Lou, he will get some money. He told me that over the phone, I mean, heíll probably confirm it if you want to speak to him.
MacLeod: Right. On the next line, can you read to me what that says?
Smith: I must have written this in a great hurry, because I donít really make any sense of it.
MacLeod: Well, just read it, it will make more sense to you than it does to me, but please read it.
Smith: It looks like ďcopy Johnís contracts listĒ, contracts list.
MacLeod: And what does, what does, down on the next line, what is that?
Smith: I canít, "danger come next day".
MacLeod: Whatís that? Would you agree that, that is a symbol?
Smith: I donít know if that is a symbol. That, I think, perhaps, itís my just trying the pen out on the paper.
MacLeod: Oh, yeah. Why try the pen out on the paper there, when youíve already been writing across there.
Smith: I donít think this was all written on one day, anyway.
Beels: Ok. The tape has come to an end. Iíll just stop the machine and change tapes. The time is 8:51 pm.
Person interviewed: Michael John Smith
Place of interview: Paddington Green Police Station
Date of interview: 11th August 1992
Time commenced: 20:52 Time concluded: 21:20
Other persons present: Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod
Detective Sergeant Stephen John Beels
Richard Jefferies (Duty Solicitor)
Beels: The time is 9:52 pm, continuing the interview of Michael Smith. Mr Smith is still under caution, do you understand?
Beels: 8:52, yes, sorry. You are still under caution, do you understand?
Smith: Yes, I understand.
MacLeod: Right Mr Smith. Letís come back to the handwriting on these, this piece of paper here, that I previously introduced, in the previous interview, JS/41.
Smith: Well, I was going to say, I donít think ...
MacLeod: What does the mean ...
Smith: Ö this has not been written all on one day, Iím sure.
MacLeod: Well, Iím not interested if it was written all in one day.
Smith: Well, the implication might be, that this is ...
MacLeod: Well Ö
Smith: Ö part of a continuing ...
MacLeod: Ö well that matters not, but just tell me what that signifies?
Smith: I canít guess now. I mean, I canít remember when I ...
MacLeod: Well, what does that say. What does that say in that line, the next word?
Smith: Iím not sure if itís danger, or dancer?
MacLeod: Danger, I would have thought. Yes. Ok. Letís go to the next line. We have a slash, what does that symbol represent?
Smith: I donít know if itís a slash, or not actually.
MacLeod: Well, whatever it is. What does it say. Can you read that to me?
Smith: It looks like ďcome next dayĒ, I think.
MacLeod: Ok. Right. Ok. Letís go on now. What does that say?
MacLeod: Yes. Does that indicate to you a date?
Smith: I donít know.
MacLeod: Right. Ok. It may or may not be. What does that say? Itís your handwriting, you should know.
Smith: Well, if I write badly, I canít always read my own writing. It looks like ďHoziderĒ.
MacLeod: Carry on.
Smith: I canít read that word, ďif not following WednesdayĒ.
MacLeod: Yes. So, this would indicate to you, that this is a, a place is it? ďIf not the following WedĒ.
Smith: I donít remember when I wrote this.
MacLeod: Yes. But Iím just asking you to read it for me. Iím not asking you to give me an interpretation at this stage. Just read it now.
Smith: It doesnít mean anything, ďHoziderĒ. I donít know what I, Iíve written there.
It may not be a complete word, Iím not ...
MacLeod: Itís not a complete word.
Smith: So I may have been making a note for myself, about something, about ...
MacLeod: Does that look like itís arrangements for a meeting, 25th September?
Smith: It might have been something to do with a dental appointment, or anything. I mean, I donít know.
MacLeod: Well, letís not beat about the bush. What does that say, itís a shortened version for Horsenden Hill.
MacLeod: Yes, you know what that is.
Smith: I donít think that looks like that to me.
MacLeod: Well, come on, ďHorsenden Hill, if not following WednesdayĒ, would you agree?
Smith: If you think it says that, but Iím not going to confirm that.
MacLeod: Iím not thinking, Iím just, that must be obvious to you, the date, or those numbers 25/9. I mean, this is fairly legible, isnít it. Even if the name of the location isnít. ďIf not following WednesdayĒ. Do you agree?
Smith: I donít know what that refers to, Iím afraid.
MacLeod: Iím not asking at this stage, what it refers to, but Iím asking you, does that read as Iíve described. ďIf not the following WednesdayĒ.
Smith: Iím afraid, even my own handwriting, I canít always understand.
MacLeod: Yes. Right. What does that say, that last line there. You read it to me.
Smith: ďCussock BreakĒ, I think it says, ďCussockĒ, or ďCussock BeachĒ. Sorry, my handwriting has defeats me, ďsome 2 to 3 WednesdaysĒ.
MacLeod: Yes. Ok. Let me try and help you out, after all itís your writing. ďContact break, come 2nd or 3rd Wednesday each monthĒ.
Smith: I think thatís your interpretation.
MacLeod: Well look. ďContact break, come 2/3 Wednesday every monthĒ. You donít agree with that?
Smith: I donít agree with that. I donít know what that refers to, Iím afraid.
MacLeod: Ok. Right. Iím going to introduce another exhibit. This exhibit JS/44, itís another piece of A4 lined paper again, with some biro writing on it. Letís go through this then. Weíll begin with, whatís
at the top, top left hand corner.
Smith: That looks like ďKarl GehringĒ, I think. Maybe this is when I was making some notes for myself, about things I had ...
MacLeod: So would you mind reading this for me, what it says here in that those 4 lines.
Smith: It looks like ďredundanciesĒ.
MacLeod: Just read it out fully, will you.
Smith: ďKarl Gehring redundanciesĒ.
Smith: ďHol. in June 15Ē. I think, perhaps, Iíd been planning a holiday.
MacLeod: What does that say?
Smith: ďSelf, self employment, long term futureĒ. I donít see what significance that has for anything?
MacLeod: Right. Weíll carry on. On the same sheet of paper. Would you mind telling me what this says here?
Smith: ďGet all project notesĒ, I think, ďBio-sensor, Micro-machining, Micron valveĒ, something detail, ďcut ÖĒ, I find it ďcutlagsĒ. I canít find, honestly I find it very confusing.
MacLeod: Yes. Well, what does that represent?
Smith: ďATS, ATSLĒ I think it says.
MacLeod: Is that a list of things that Harry asked you to get from GEC?
Smith: No, Harry didnít ask me about those things, Harry was interested in micro-electronics. If, I donít recognise all those terms, a couple of them are, I think, areas I had to do audits on, and maybe I had to get the notes before I did the audit, I canít remember. You see, this is going back sometime, I believe. I donít remember.
MacLeod: Ok. But you agree, it is a list of ...
Smith: Itís a list of something.
MacLeod: Ö relating to GEC.
MacLeod: Yes. Ok. And can you tell me what this stands for?
Smith: I donít actually recollect what that, that, itís an abbreviation, I think.
Smith: For something.
MacLeod: Right. Letís go on to this part here. What does this say here. Sorry, here you are, you have it, take your time. Iíd rather you take your time, and concentrate on what youíve written. Explain to me what that note means, just that bit there, those 4 lines.
Smith: I think this is just jibberish that I was writing, and, Iím sorry, I canít make any sense of this at all.
MacLeod: I think you can. I think you can. These are symbols there, arenít they. Would you agree thatís a symbol?
Smith: A symbol of what sort?
MacLeod: Well, I donít know. Itís obviously significant to you. I mean, itís ...
Smith: No, no itís not. I think itís just some doodling I was, we were talking about going to Elstree, er ...
MacLeod: Look. Letís ...
MacLeod: Never mind Elstree. Letís talk about this.
Smith: Well, it looks like Elstree to me, I can see that.
MacLeod: Right. I agree, itís not very legible. ďAt ElmtreeĒ.
MacLeod: Yes, ďat ElmtreeĒ, and that symbol there I would suggest is a spire.
MacLeod: A church spire.
Smith: I think thatís just, um Ö
MacLeod: Yes, go on, what?
Smith: Ö speculation.
MacLeod: Speculation, right, and here we have a symbol of some sort.
Smith: It looks like one of those things on Easter Island I think (laughs). Iím sorry, to put it bluntly, I donít feel that thereís much sense there.
MacLeod: Well, I think there is. I think thereís a lot of sense in this, when you analyse it. Thatís a symbol for a water hydrant.
Smith: (laughs) I find that funny, Iím sorry.
MacLeod: Well, Iím glad you find it amusing, I certainly donít. That means, go right at the water hydrant, at Elmtree, youíll see the church spire. Youíve got a symbol here that represents ...
Smith: Sorry, I, I donít, I do not believe ...
MacLeod: You can laugh as much as you like, but this is a very serious matter.
Smith: You might think itís serious, but to me this is just some doodlings, that I may have made a year or two ago, or longer, and I, it might, I used to, you can see itís folded. I used to keep a piece of paper ...
MacLeod: Listen, stick to point ...
Smith: Ö in my pocket at all times.
MacLeod: Letís not digress. Letís stick to the point.
MacLeod: That is significant. Itís significant to you.
Smith: Itís not significant.
MacLeod: Itís significant, because itís KGB field craft. Itís their means of communicating with their agents. And that was the reason that you were at Harrow on the Hill on Thursday.
Smith: No itís not.
MacLeod: That was the reason you didnít want to go down to the seaside on Friday. You know well what that is.
Smith: Why should I, how can what I did on Thursday affect what I did on Friday? I donít see the connection.
MacLeod: Because you had an appointment, you had an appointment there at Harrow on the Hill on Thursday. The appointment wasnít kept. The symbol, the symbol was probably there for you to see, ďcome next dayĒ. You had to make contact with your controller the next day.
MacLeod: Yes you had, yes you had.
Smith: No, I did not, because this is, has got nothing to do with ...
MacLeod: You know well that you had, no reason for you to go all the way out to Harrow on the Hill, having spent the morning at Basingstoke. To go up there, and sit around there for 5 or 10, 15, 20 minutes, whatever.
Smith: I was in Harrow.
MacLeod: And youíre telling me ...
Smith: I was in Harrow already, and itís ...
MacLeod: Ö in that. Listen.
Smith: Ö itís my prerogative to go for a walk, anywhere I please. This is a free country.
MacLeod: You can go to Timbuktoo.
MacLeod: Yes, but usually thereís a reason for it.
Smith: And if you think normal people should stay at home, and not go and walk where they please, then I think thereís something seriously wrong here.
MacLeod: I can tell you, and I will be able to prove, that this type of symbol, this type of note is consistent with the instruction thatís given by KGB agents ...
Smith: Well I canít agree, can I just ...
MacLeod: Ö with regard to making contact.
Smith: All I can do is dispute that. I think, youíve completely misread some doodlings that Iíve made on a piece of paper.
MacLeod: This is an instruction at Elmtree, you can see the church spire, go to the water hydrant.
Smith: (laughs) Iím sorry this is so crazy.
MacLeod: And Iím going to reintroduce exhibit KK/1, which contained a number of black and white photographs of the vicinity of Harrow on the Hill. We had the church spire, we have the water hydrant.
MacLeod: You can laugh as much as you like.
Smith: This is absolutely incredible, I mean.
MacLeod: You can laugh.
Smith: I thought you had a case. Iím amazed that you can put such disparate things together, and create a monster.
MacLeod: Yes, but you under-estimated it, didnít you. You didnít think ...
Smith: No, I ...
MacLeod: You didnít think that anything could be made of this.
Smith: That is quite an innocent piece of paper.
MacLeod: Well, innocent piece of paper. Right, Ok. Letís have a look at the water hydrant again, shall we. Letís have a look at that photograph, and letís see
how that matches up. Ok. Letís have a look. Can you see, see the marks, yes.
MacLeod: Yes. You can laugh, you can laugh Mr Smith, but youíll be laughing the other side of your face.
Smith: This is, is hogwash.
MacLeod: There was a mark left on that ...
MacLeod: Ö the very - itís not shown on this, but you know well that there was a mark left on that.
Smith: Thereís not a mark left on that.
MacLeod: Ö and that that ...
Smith: Iíve never seen that - if you call it a hydrant - I donít think thatís a symbol for a hydrant at all.
MacLeod: Well Iím telling you it is.
Smith: Well, I donít recognise that as being a hydrant.
MacLeod: And thatís the reason that you were in Harrow on the Hill, to make contact with your controller.
Smith: No, it was not the reason I was at Harrow on the Hill. I ...
MacLeod: Listen man Ö
Smith: Ö Iíve previously explained to you, that, I went ...
MacLeod: Ö for goodness sake, donít take us for idiots.
Smith: Iím not an idiot either. Youíre trying to put a lot of rubbish together, to make me say I was there for a reason. I was there walking about.
MacLeod: You are a KGB agent.
Smith: I am not, and I think, if you put forward evidence like this in court, theyíll laugh you out of court, Iím afraid. This is absolute rubbish.
MacLeod: And Iíve got bad news for you. The days of your espionage activities are coming to an end, that much I can assure you. Right, I am going to move on now to, I am going to produce some other items, that were found in the same drawer as the other pieces of paper. This is exhibit JS/43. Is that your handwriting?
Smith: Um, it looks like it, I think.
MacLeod: Ok. Iím not going to argue the contents.
Smith: Well, the thing is, you know, that I scribble notes on all sorts of bits of paper, and I donít really always remember what Iíve written.
MacLeod: Iím producing another exhibit now, JS/42. Similarly, itís another piece of A4 lined paper with some writing on one side. Have a look at that, have a quick squint please.
MacLeod: Is it your handwriting?
Smith: It looks, yes I think itís, well it looks similar to mine, yes.
MacLeod: Explain to me, what does it mean?
Smith: I canít remember. I mean, I, this might have been written years ago, for heavens sake. What am I supposed to say?
Beels: Well read it to us - itís your handwriting - as best as possible.
Smith: It looks, it could be South Harrow, second or the third of April. Possibly that was, maybe some note Iíd made about meeting Harry there, I donít know.
MacLeod: Well was it? If it was, talk me through it. If itís Harry weíre talking about, tell me.
Smith: Well it, it, it, maybe it was. I mean, I ...
MacLeod: Did Harry give you, letís try and simplify things. Do these instructions relate to, or do these writings and exhibits Iíve just introduced, were these instructions given by Harry?
Smith: They may have been, I canít remember.
MacLeod: But I mean, they must be significant to you. They must be important, because they were in the same envelope that contained the £2,000.
Smith: I explained to you, that there were a number of items which were together at work in my filing cabinet, and that the reason they were together, was because I put them all there in that place. In collecting them up, and putting them back in my home, when I left my company, they ended up in the same place, and thatís the only reason you found them all together.
MacLeod: Iím talking specifically about the 2 envelopes containing £2,000 in new banknotes.
MacLeod: These envelopes contained these pieces of paper, would you not say there was some significance there?
Smith: Well, you seem to think itís significant. I donít see any significance in that.
MacLeod: Well, I mean, Iím giving you the opportunity man, to tell me.
Smith: Well, if I could explain it I would.
MacLeod: Well, please do then. Iíd be anxious if you did.
Smith: My only explanation is: I must have pushed it all together in a rush to get things ready, so that when I left work, I actually took away all my possessions.
Smith: Having got home, I knew where the money was. I didnít want my wife to find it, so I put it in my drawer in the bedroom. Now, if that, if youíre putting some connection between this and the money, Iím not sure thatís something I can see.
MacLeod: Well, is that not a reasonable conclusion to draw?
Smith: Is it? I donít. I ...
MacLeod: Youíve got pieces of paper, that obviously give some cryptic instructions, along with £2,000.
Smith: They must be notes to myself, to remind me of things I had to do. Iím ...
MacLeod: Did you keep the £2,000 in your office?
Smith: Yes I did.
MacLeod: Why did you keep it there, rather than take it home?
Smith: Because I didnít want my wife to find it.
Smith: Because she didnít think I had it.
MacLeod: Well, obviously she didnít.
Smith: So why should I not keep it at work, itís probably safer than at home.
MacLeod: But that was money you got from the Russians.
Smith: I didnít get it from the Russians at all.
MacLeod: You got it from the Russians, and youíre lying through your teeth.
Smith: I did not get it from the Russians, I got it from this man ...
MacLeod: You are lying through your teeth.
Smith: Ö I received that money from a man.
MacLeod: Your spying days are over, they are over ....
Smith: Ö Iíve ...
MacLeod: Ö quite unequivocally over.
Smith: Can I get a word in please. I received that money from Harry. I do not know Harryís client, but I presume it is another company in this country, and Iím sorry, I canít see any connection there between that money and Russians, as you put it.
MacLeod: Are you telling me, are you telling me that you havenít been on the payroll of the KGB, for the last 16/17 years?
Smith: 16 or 17 years, I think thatís an incredible thing to say. I do not ...
MacLeod: Well youíre, youíve ...
Smith: Well, can I answer that, I mean, that is a waste of time saying it, 16 or 17 years Ö
Smith: Ö do you think I could have been doing something ...
Smith: Ö for that period of time?
MacLeod: Yes, yes, yes.
Smith: Ö and nobody knew?
MacLeod: Consistently over the years.
Smith: Thatís rubbish.
MacLeod: And you would have continued, you would have continued.
Smith: That is rubbish.
MacLeod: If your security clearance wasnít withdrawn, you would have continued to sell secrets to the Russians.
Smith: I think youíre talking rubbish, man.
MacLeod: The only reason you upset them Ö
Smith: I have not worked ...
MacLeod: Ö when you had your security ...
Smith: Ö I have never worked for the KGB. I do not work for the KGB now, and I never will do. Iíve got no interest in the KGB.
MacLeod: But youíve already been supplying secrets by the barrel load to the, this man Harry that you met?
Smith: I did not say anything, a barrel load. I ...
MacLeod: Well youíve been supplying, thatís ...
Smith: Ö it was a modest amount of documentation.
MacLeod: Ö may be not supplying heavily, but you know what I mean, youíve been selling secrets, and classified ...
Smith: Theyíre commercial secrets.
MacLeod: Letís not get into semantics here. Weíre talking Ö
Smith: Well, I think itís important that we are not talking about official secrets.
MacLeod: So youíre talking. Right. Ok. Letís talk about that then. Before we go any further, I would just like to introduce another exhibit, just before developing this line of questioning. I am going to introduce exhibit MN/8, and this is the Official Secrets Act declaration. Is that the declaration that was signed by you, when you went to ...
Smith: I think so, yes.
MacLeod: Ö to GEC in 1986?
Smith: I did not sign it when I went there. I signed it sometime after I actually joined GEC.
MacLeod: Right, you agree thatís your signature?
Smith: That, thatís correct yes.
MacLeod: And you fully understand what that means?
Smith: Yes I do.
MacLeod: You do. Right. Ok. Perhaps you would be so kind as to read for me, and the benefit of your solicitor, the first 2 paragraphs.
Smith: My attention has been drawn to the provisions of the Official Secrets Acts, which are printed overleaf. I am aware that serious consequences, including prosecution, may follow any breach of them by me. I understand that, amongst other things, I must not communicate in any form to another person information about the work carried out directly or otherwise for the government by my employer, or discuss this work with any other person, retain or remove drawings, notebooks or other documents or things relating to this work, photograph or otherwise make copies of
or extracts from drawings, notebooks or other documents or things relating to this work, unless in respect of any of these matters I am expressly authorised, or required by my group leader to do so for the purposes of my work.
MacLeod: Signed by you, what date?
Smith: 15th July 1986.
MacLeod: So you are under no illusion as to your responsibilities under the Official Secrets Act. Is that true?
Smith: Well, I think that must be true, because I signed it.
MacLeod: Well of course itís true, itís pretty obvious isnít it. We discussed earlier on, the work thatís carried out by companies like GEC, places like Hirst Research, and you did agree, did you not, that a lot of the work thatís carried out there is carried out on behalf of the British Government?
Smith: No, I would reject that.
MacLeod: Well, I think, if weíll go back through the transcriptions, I think we will find that you ...
Smith: Letís, I want to, I worked there, and I think I know more than you do about the amount of work that may be government, connected with government projects. The number of government projects there is very limited now. At one time it may have been much more, but ...
MacLeod: When you say one time, what sort of time, up till when?
Smith: Up until I think about the mid 80ís, or even earlier, because the government has consistently been cutting back on projects of this ...
MacLeod: Ok. We all know that, but are you saying then thatís there no, there isnít any work being carried out there.
Smith: Iím not saying that at all. As I explained before.
MacLeod: But thatís my point, thereís work being carried out ...
Smith: Work on Trident, and such like, is obviously ...
MacLeod: Yes and Rapier.
Smith: Ö covered by, I do not know of any Rapier contracts with HRC. If you say there are, I have to accept that, but I am not aware of that. I wouldnít even know which laboratory would be doing that work.
MacLeod: And you were quite happy, having signed the Official Secrets Acts, fully understanding the import of that, you went ahead and provided information, letís not argue whether itís classified or not, just for the sake of it. You provided information to Harry, as you knew him, a man who phones you up out of the blue, wants to do some business with you, puts a proposition
to you, and you agree. Is that right, thatís what you told me earlier on.
Smith: Well, we were talking about, as I say, obsolete projects which ...
MacLeod: Yes, obsolete.
Smith: Ö which carried no consequence.
MacLeod: Right. Ok. Youíre talking about obsolete, since youíre on the subject of obsolete projects. Letís just go back to one of those exhibits, that I introduced just a few moments ago. And letís see what it says there. ďGet old project notesĒ, yes?
Smith: I think, what youíre reading into this, is like this all comes as one thing. I think these were just jottings I made. If you look, the paper was folded, I believe.
MacLeod: Iím not interested in that.
Smith: Well, it is a very important point ...
MacLeod: Does that not say get old project notes, do you agree?
Smith: I think thatís what it says, yes.
MacLeod: Of course, itís what it says, and then it gives a list of things.
Beels: Are we to continue?
Beels: The tape is coming to an end , so Iím going to switch off the machine. The time is 9:20 pm.
Person interviewed: Michael John Smith
Place of interview: Paddington Green Police Station
Date of interview: 11th August 1992
Time commenced: 21:22 Time concluded: 21:50
Other persons present: Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod
Detective Sergeant Stephen John Beels
Richard Jefferies (Duty Solicitor)
Beels: The time is 9:22 pm. This is the continuing of the interview of Mr Michael Smith, regarding alleged offences under the Official Secrets Act. Mr Smith, you are not obliged to say anything unless you wish to do so, but whatever you say may be given in evidence. Do you understand?
Smith: Yes, I do.
MacLeod: Right, letís go back to some of these notes that Iíve just introduced.
MacLeod: Letís go back over them, shall we? Would you like to have a look at this one, and just tell the significance of this note. Weíre still examining the exhibit JS/43, that was introduced during the course of the interview.
Smith: Well, I think these are just notes I was making, about things I was doing. I, I, I honestly canít ...
MacLeod: Letís go through this then , what does that say?
Smith: I can see itís January, something January, something April, every 4 months. I, I, I donít know what the connection is. So, this is just a jumble of things I ...
MacLeod: So youíre not going, youíre not going to give me any explanation for these notes. Iím giving you an opportunity now, to put your version on these notes.
Smith: Iíve made it.
MacLeod: Take your time.
Smith: I made notes, about something or other, that were important at the time. But now, I, I, I donít recollect what they what they were for.
MacLeod: Would you agree, from the, er, from the colouring of this piece of paper, itís about a, a third of a size, a third of an A4 size sheet of paper, that appears to have been, if youíd say, quite an old bit of paper.
Smith: A what?
MacLeod: You was, itís quite old, would you say, or itís tattered ...
Smith: Well, well I think it looks quite old.
MacLeod: Yeah. So there was instructions that had been written down, perhaps some time ago. Would you agree?
Smith: How long ago, I wouldnít like to say.
MacLeod: No, but I mean, theyíre, theyíre not new, I mean.
Smith: You can, can see I folded it. I used to carry pieces - you wouldnít let me finish here - but I used to carry a piece of paper around in my pocket, most of the time, to jot things down on, just to remind me of the, the days or something. I, I, maybe thatís what Iíve done here, and I, I, I see nothing wrong in that, why should I? Why, why shouldnít I, I jot down things, why should I remember them afterwards.
MacLeod: No, but theyíre obviously significant to you, because, er, they were alongside the £2,000 in your bedroom drawer.
Smith: Iíve already explained . There were a lot of bits of paper in my filing cabinet drawer, on the Friday I left Hirst Research Centre. In my, er, rush to get things together to go home, they all got stuffed into the one envelope, I suppose. I, I donít ...
MacLeod: Was that £2,000 from Harry?
Smith: It was from Harry, yes.
MacLeod: So, how come this is in that, with Harry?
Smith: I just explained it to you. I put everything that was in the drawer together ...
MacLeod: But thatís the ...
Smith: Ö in my briefcase to take it home.
MacLeod: But all weíre talking about, for goodness sake, about 3 or 4 pieces of paper.
Smith: Well, youíre making the point, Iím not. I mean, I donít, donít think there is a point here.
MacLeod: But the point, I think itís self-evident.
Smith: Of what?
MacLeod: Itís self-evident of the fact, that you had received money from the KGB over a number of years, for selling information Ö
Smith: I donít see the connection.
MacLeod: Ö for selling information to the Russians.
Smith: Thatís not true.
MacLeod: Whether that information was classified, or un-classified, is immaterial. It was, it was information that you had obtained from your place of work, and Iím suggesting, and it was supported by your old chum Victor, who, who said that he recruited you back about 1973, í74.
Smith: We, we, we keep, we keep changing the dates now.
MacLeod: No, no, no, no, no. We were still talking about í70s, around the early í70s, when Victor Oshchenko recruited you, and put you on the KGB payroll. He recruited you, you were supplying information to them concerning the nuclear fuze.
Smith: That is, is not true. Itís not true, though why should you expect me to, to ...
MacLeod: Well, why do you Ö.
Smith: Ö to lie.
MacLeod: Ö why would you expect a man to, a man like Oshchenko, to say something like that if it wasnít true, because up to now, youíve been proved to be a liar. You proved ...
Smith: How have I been proved to be a liar?
MacLeod: Ö all the way through consistently ...
Smith: I think that ...
MacLeod: Ö youíve told me lies.
Smith: Ö my, my ...
MacLeod: Youíve told my ...
Smith: Ö my statements have been very consistent.
MacLeod: All your life youíre a compulsive liar.
MacLeod: Iím not a compulsive liar.
MacLeod: You told lies to your security officer, concerning your clearance.
Smith: I didnít ...
MacLeod: Not your clearance, your past, your CPGB connections, in order to get a job at EMI. The reason you went to EMI was because you were asked to find a job in one of the companies thatís carrying out work for the British Government.
Smith: Well, er, if you go back to what, the statements I made much earlier on, I, I went to the job as a, as a career move.
MacLeod: Too right you did, your career with the KGB.
Smith: No, no thatís not true. What you said to me about lying to my security officer, I donít recollect having made a lie.
MacLeod: What do you mean, you didnít. You, you, well listen, listen.
Smith: Well, Ok. What, what did I actually sign, that said Iíd, Iíd not been a member?
MacLeod: When you filled in your application form for EMI.
MacLeod: Yeah. One of the questions, and it wasnít too difficult to answer, did you have any, do you or did you have any connections or affiliations with any communist organisations.
Smith: Well, does it say that on the form, Iím not sure?
MacLeod: I donít know the precise words, but ...
Smith: Well, if itís, if itís on the form, and I Ö
MacLeod: But you misled them.
Smith: I donít Ö
MacLeod: You, you didnít, but you told your security officer, when it came to, came to your vetting, that you lied. So, I mean, thereís no point arguing in this point, because once, itís already as a matter of record.
Smith: Iím sorry, but, but without a piece of paper that has all this on it ...
MacLeod: Well, Iím not going, Iím not going into that now.
Smith: Well, otherwise, weíre, weíre just speculating, Iím afraid.
MacLeod: But youíve been lying. Youíre a compulsive liar.
Smith: Iím not a compulsive liar.
MacLeod: Youíre a thief, you are a thief. You stole records from, and information from your company, and you sold, sold it to an individual ...
Smith: Well, Iíve, Iíve already ...
MacLeod: Ö an individual.
Smith: Ö Iíve already made a statement to that effect, as part of this interview.
MacLeod: I know you did, because you see that as being the easiest way out.
Smith: No, I donít see it as being the easy way out at all.
MacLeod: You know, you know very well Mr Smith, what youíve been up to over the last number of years. If I didnít feel so confident in saying what Iím saying.
Smith: Well, you can say it as strongly as you like, the, the way you see the case, but as, as far as I am concerned I deny the accusation that Iíve been working for the KGB, I deny I was recruited for the KGB, that I know these people that you show me the photographs of. Iíve had no connection with these people. What more can I say?
MacLeod: I think you could say an awful lot more, if you wanted to be truthful. You could say an awful lot more, but you choose not to.
Smith: I can say no more. I mean, if, if you think I can say more, then you must pose the questions that bring out those answers, otherwise I canít speculate on what you want me to say.
MacLeod: Iím not asking you to speculate, Iím asking you to answer the questions truthfully.
Smith: Have I not answered the questions.
MacLeod: No, you have not. You have lied all the way through this last few days here at Paddington Police Station.
Smith: If you feel that, in which case, er, what we have on tape is, is what has to be.
MacLeod: So thatís, thatís your, thatís your account of things?
Smith: The evidence of my account, yes.
MacLeod: Right. So weíve got it wrong?
Smith: Well, I think you have got it wrong, yes. I mean, thatís why I said in the police van, when we were coming here, that I thought youíd made a mess of this. Why was, why was I being brought to this station.
MacLeod: Well, I think, I think youíll soon find out we havenít. The reason that you didnít want to go to the coast last Friday was because you didnít make that meet, that had been arranged beforehand. The meeting at Harrow on the Hill with your controller. The man ...
Smith: There was no meeting on the, on the Harrow ...
MacLeod: Ö the man that you have met on several occasions, youíve been handed from one individual - Ok, there may have been a period where there was a loss of contact - but virtually throughout the mid to late í70s early í80s, I would suggest, and Iím telling you, that you were under the control of the KGB.
Smith: I repeat what Iíve said before.
MacLeod: And the reason Ö
Smith: I am not under the control of the KGB. I want to make that very clear.
MacLeod: Ö and let me tell you, that was the reason that you reacted so quickly to that phone call on Saturday morning, because you had lost contact on the, on the, on the Friday, when you should have been back there ...
Smith: I had not lost contact with anybody.
MacLeod: Ö and followed the instructions. You should have been back there to meet your man ...
Smith: Thatís such a ...
MacLeod: Ö and your, your wife wanted to go to the coast, that didnít suit you and you had a row.
Smith: We did not have a row over that.
MacLeod: Ö thus, when the phone call came in on Saturday morning, that was the reason you went running to these telephone kiosks to take further instructions.
Smith: I, I think Iím afraid ...
MacLeod: And youíre trying to tell me.
Smith: Ö youíre, youíre making from a number of unconnected facts, a scenario thatís not true. Iíve explained it, going right back to the phone call on the Saturday, it was completely out of the blue, I did not expect a man called George to phone, I did, I did not know George, I, I explained to you exactly what I did. You seem to think I, I was ,um, doing something unusual, I, I think it was very usual to, for me to be curious about who was ringing me up at that time, and asking me to go somewhere.
MacLeod: You thought that was usual did you.
Smith: For me itís, itís usual.
MacLeod: For you. Well, perhaps for you itís usual, but not for the average person in the street itís not.
Smith: Well, who is the average person? I donít think there is such a thing.
MacLeod: Right. Iím now going to produce quite a number of documents, that were seized during the search at your home address, and taken from the boot of your car. Iím going to introduce them one by one. This is exhibit JS/15, this is, er, a manufacturerís flow chart, itís, itís a publication, er, produced for the benefit, sole benefit of the GEC company. Do you recognise that?
Smith: I wouldnít say I recognise that. If you say it was, I did explain it to you before, I, I picked up some documentation on my way out of the company, which, um, was basically old. I mean, whatís the date on that - í83 - I mean, itís, itís quite old, and itís not recent.
MacLeod: Right. Ok. A quantity of correspondence, so far as exhibits are concerned, whatever the contents are can be a matter of further discussion. Iím introducing exhibit JS/32, itís an A4, correction, two A4 pieces of paper with some kind of diagram on them. Do you recognise that?
Smith: No, I donít recognise them, no, I donít believe. Well, there again, weíre going back very, these are very old documents, that were in my,
my predecessor, who left the job, em, in about í85. left all this really rubbish in the, in the drawers and, um, I had thrown a lot of it away, but it was it was mixed up with stuff that I, I ...
MacLeod: Well, whether it was rubbish or not, Mr Smith, I leave that for others to determine, and Iím introducing a similar piece of paper exhibit JS/34, another one JS/35. This is exhibit JS/38, and itís a quantity of blueprints, this is JS/8, it is one sheet of lined paper containing technical, technical details, itís an A4 piece of paper, lined paper.
Smith: Now hang on, we, we talked about that before. That was one of these Ö
MacLeod: That was what was found, remember in the, underneath ...
Smith: Yes I remember, because we discussed it, yes.
MacLeod: Ö this is the paper that stops the water coming under the, er, under the carpet in the car, isnít it?
Smith: Well thatís, thatís what I said, yes.
MacLeod: Yeah, that was the one. This is JS/18, a quantity of correspondence. What does that look like to you?
Smith: These were, em, notes, I think I made for, er, purposes of understanding some of the work that I was dealing with, em, which I was auditing.
MacLeod: So, if we just look at this for just a moment.
Smith: Yes, yes.
MacLeod: Yeah, just for a minute. What would you say of the handwriting there, is it neat?
Smith: Itís not really neat, I would say.
MacLeod: Well, considering some of the writing I, I, Iíve seen so far, I would have thought it was very neat.
Smith: Well I, I, I intended to use it in, in future audits, but unfortunately, er ...
MacLeod: Oh Iím sure.
Smith: Ö Iím not going to be there.
MacLeod: And what is this?
Smith: Itís, em, response of, er, I think this to do with, em, a thing that goes on a car.
MacLeod: For the purposes, for the purposes of the recording.
Smith: Somebody would, em, itís, itís a radar system for a car, itís a commercial product.
MacLeod: Ok. Itís, itís a sketch. Ok. Ok. Fair enough. Iíll produce exhibit JS/19, this is another A4 piece of lined paper with some writings, regarding Micron-valve project, dated May 1992. Is that your handwriting?
Smith: Er, yes. I, I, I drew that yes.
MacLeod: Iím introducing JS/20, a piece of paper, er, this is another A4 sheet of paper, lined paper, with some writing and a diagram on it. Do you recognise that as being your handwriting?
Smith: Yes, this was based on, er, we, we had, em, some seminars, that I, er, I made some notes for, notes for understanding the ...
Smith: Ö the technology, because Iím, I have to audit the man.
MacLeod: Ok. Right. Iím introducing JS/16. Right. Again, itís an A4 sheet of paper with writing and diagrams on it.
Smith: Yes, yes. Iím, Iím not denying anything about this, no.
MacLeod: No, no. But I have to, for my purposes, introduce you to these ...
MacLeod: Ö and give you opportunity to explain to me.
Smith: Yes, yes, yes.
MacLeod: Is this your writing?
MacLeod: Is this a sketch?
Smith: Itís, itís a sketch to ...
MacLeod: Diagrams, Ok. And does it not relate to SDI?
Smith: Well I, I think it did. I, I donít know for sure.
MacLeod: Well, it was your writing, you must know surely.
Smith: No. The, the, the project for these, these filters is something which, em, is quite interesting to understand. I, I had a meeting with the man. I, I kept some notes for, for my own benefit.
MacLeod: Um, and when did you compile these notes?
Smith: They were done, er, shortly after the, the meetings we had with the people.
MacLeod: And when was that, can you remember?
Smith: What the time? Was June, June.
MacLeod: June 1992.
Smith: I, I, the point was, Iíd made, Iíd made these sort of notes before, for the purpose of keeping a, a record for the following yearís audit. That I go in there, I, I read up on what I did the year before, then I can answer or ask valid questions based on, I donít have to go through the process of re-asking the same questions, what are you doing, how does it work, itís just notes for my benefit.
MacLeod: Are these notes that were intended for Harry?
Smith: Oh no. I wouldnít give that to Harry, no.
MacLeod: Why not?
Smith: Harry didnít ask for this, for one thing.
MacLeod: If Harry asked for the like of that, would you have given it.
Smith: No, I wouldnít, because thatís not the nature of the, what I gave Harry. Harry, what Harry got, was as I said obsolete, old work on, on ...
MacLeod: Well, you mean Ö
Smith: Ö things which, which werenít of any value.
MacLeod: Ö this type of thing, do you mean, like was contained of JS/15, was that the type of thing you gave him?
Smith: No, it ... that was not the sort of thing I would have given Harry.
MacLeod: Ok. Well, what sort of thing did you give Harry?
Smith: Well, the sort of thing I would have given Harry, was the sort of thing which were just procedural documents, about, er, how you, you, you wash or prepare micro-chips. I mean, it, it was basically about processing, not, not about overall projects, no way.
MacLeod: So, if I can just dwell on this one, just for the moment. Why would you not have given that to Harry?
Smith: Because I donít consider thatís, thatís appropriate to give to Harry. Thatís, thatís something I, I should have destroyed with the other. There was a lot of these that I kept in my filing cabinet. I, I destroyed them all before I left.
Beels: Why should you have destroyed that?
Smith: Because it, it was mixed up, as I said, in the final batch that I hadnít really gone through, and I ...
Beels: But why do you think that should have been destroyed?
Smith: Because itís, itís not relevant to me now, and I, I really shouldnít have it, I think. I mean, I shouldnít have taken it away.
Beels: Why shouldnít you have had it?
Smith: Because I think, I think itís a more sensitive project. Itís, itís not the sort of thing I would, em, that would have ...
Beels: What do you mean by sensitive?
Smith: Well that could have been restricted, I think.
Smith: That information, yes.
MacLeod: In other words, classified.
Smith: Iím saying it could have been, I donít know if it would be.
MacLeod: But would, would you not imagine anything to do with SDI would be classified?
Smith: Well, I should think it would be. This, this is not, em, the reason I said for SDI, because that was one of the, the possible uses of that work.
MacLeod: Oh, I might think itís quite unequivocal there, isnít it.
Smith: Because Iíve said that, it does not mean that that has any use to, to somebody for SDI ...
MacLeod: Well ...
Smith: Ö Iím sorry, I mean, that is, that is purely what, what the project was, em, it could Ö
MacLeod: Ö well, I think itís quite clear it speaks for itself. It states quite clearly itís for SDI.
Smith: But these were statements.
MacLeod: And not only that, itís dated June of this year.
Smith: But these were statements, which people, em, were giving me in, in the course of my auditing.
MacLeod: Yeah, but it seems to be very neat writing really for, I mean, if, thatís hardly a note is it?
Smith: That doesnít look that neat to me, I mean, ...
MacLeod: Well, is it a Ö
Smith: Ö it was designed to be kept for future use, I, I decided. You have got to remember ...
MacLeod: That was one of your intelligence reports for the KGB, and that was the format in which you were asked to do it.
Smith: No it was not.
MacLeod: Well, what format was it?
Smith: Thatís the format that I use, itís a, itís an ad hoc format, thereís no format there if you look.
MacLeod: Look at it, look at the way itís written there, itís fairly, fairly clear.
Smith: I made those notes, which may have been of use to, to further audits, er, by me or, or other people. There is no point in me producing something that people canít read, is there.
MacLeod: Producing exhibit JS/30 is another 2 pieces of paper with diagrams. I produce exhibit JS/17, described as a quantity of correspondence. Do you recognise that again, again on an A4 size lined paper?
Smith: Thatís to do with, um, with the Micro-machining.
MacLeod: Yeah, Ok.
Smith: No. Well that, that, they were notes that I took at, em, it was a seminar, an open seminar for anybody in Hirst Research Centre to go along to. I made notes, and wrote them up a bit more neatly, because I had to go and see that man a week after that meeting, and I wanted to go along armed with some information, that I could ask him questions on.
MacLeod: Oh I see, right.
Smith: Thatís what that was for.
MacLeod: But you agree thatís your writing?
MacLeod: Ok. I produce exhibit JS/25, 2 pieces of paper, again with diagrams, as before. Do you recognise that?
Smith: I donít know. As I say, theyíre just documents, that got mixed up with some of the things that were personal to me.
MacLeod: Ok. Right. I produce JS/29, 2 pieces of paper, similar as before, with diagrams. Further exhibit JS/28, 2 pieces of paper, again with diagrams.
Smith: Iíd like to make it clear, that all this material is unclassified, itís, itís purely company confidential.
MacLeod: I produce exhibit JS/27, 2 pieces of paper, again with diagrams. JS/26 similar description as before. JS/36, one piece of paper, as previously described. JS/37 containing a quantity of documents. JS/33, 2 pieces of paper. JS/31, 2 pieces of paper. JS/22, quantity of correspondence, similar type diagrams as before. JS/24, 2 pieces of paper again with diagrams. JS/23, 2 pieces of paper, similar as described.
This is RH/9, it is described as a metal gadget in a plastic case, this was found in the hallway.
Smith: In the hallway? That, er, is an example of a galvanometer, that was produced by Thorn EMI Datatech, and it was probably manufactured in the early í80s. In fact, it, it was dead. I was, took it as a sample.
MacLeod: This is JS/14, contained in a plastic bag, and described as a quantity of components.
Beels: Do you know whatís in there, do you remember?
Smith: Iím not sure.
MacLeod: Shall I open this up. Iím now, Iím now going to unseal this particular exhibit JS/14.
Smith: Ok. I, I think I know enough of whatís in that bag.
MacLeod: Right. Letís just make sure weíre all, we all know what weíre talking about. Do you want me to unpack the lot. Shall I put them all out in the bags, theyíre all micro-chips, micro-chips of some description, are they not ...
Smith: Not all of them, no.
MacLeod: Well, er.
Smith: I know what they are, they are old samples, non-working samples just, ...
MacLeod: Ö that were lying around in my office, had been there for some time, were junk basically, but I, I thought I would like a sample of what the company did, before I left.
MacLeod: Yes, right.
Smith: I think you will find, they have no useful value at all.
MacLeod: I have no doubt, Mr Smith, that amongst some of the items Iíve shown you here this evening, some, quite a few maybe, of the items, maybe of little value and importance, but equally, there are a number of these documents that will be proven to be of value, and to be subject to the Official Secrets Act. Em, Iím producing the final exhibit JS/21, and itís described again, as a quantity of correspondence.
Beels: The tape is coming to an end, are we going to carry on for a short while?
I am concluding this interview. Is there anything else you wish to add or clarify?
Smith: No, er, not, none whatsoever.
Beels: At the end of this interview, I will be asking you to sign the seal on the master tape, will you do so?
Smith: Yes I will.
Beels: And a form here explaining your rights of access to the tape. The time is now 9:50 pm. and Iím switching off the machine.