Person interviewed: Michael John Smith
Place of interview: Paddington Green Police Station
Date of interview: 8th August 1992
Time commenced: 15:05 Time concluded: 15:31
Other persons present: Detective Inspector Martin Nicholson
Detective Sergeant Gary Pepe
Pepe: This interview is being tape-recorded. I am Gary Pepe, Detective Sergeant attached to New Scotland Yard. The other officer present is …
Nicholson: Detective Inspector Nicholson, also attached to New Scotland Yard.
Pepe: We are in the interview room of Paddington Police Station. I am interviewing, if you could state your name sir.
Smith: My name is Michael Smith of 48A Burton Road, Kingston upon Thames.
Pepe: Lovely, thank you. You are entitled to speak to a solicitor at any time Mr Smith, day or night.
Smith: I don’t need a solicitor.
Pepe: Well, I’ve got to give you the right Michael, it’s free of charge and it is your entitlement.
Smith: Well, I don’t think this is going to get very much further, so I don’t think ...
Pepe: Ok, are you happy to be interviewed without a solicitor at this present moment in time?
Smith: Why not, yes, course I am.
Pepe: There is no other person in the room. The date is the 8th August 1992. It is a Saturday. The time by my watch is 5 minutes past 3.
Smith: Well, in which case I’m getting a bit worried about the time, can you. …
Pepe: Ok, so it’s 5 minutes past 3. At the conclusion of the interview I will give you a notice, here’s a form here, which will explain how you can have access to the tapes which are in the machine at the moment. Ok, so you can have your own copy. When you were arrested you have certain rights.
Smith: Hang on, I didn’t think I was arrested. I think you brought me in for questioning, or something.
Pepe: Well you’ve been arrested, that’s why ...
Smith: I don’t agree with that.
Pepe: You’ve been arrested.
Smith: I think that’s been portrayed wrongly.
Pepe: Michael listen to me, what I am saying to you is you have been arrested.
Smith: On what charge?
Pepe: When any person is arrested they have certain rights, Ok, the right to say nothing, that is, you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be used as evidence. Now I want you to understand that, that any answer that you give to me is at your own free will.
Smith: Of course it is, yes.
Pepe: You’ve been arrested, you haven’t been charged with any offence.
Smith: Well I don’t want this going on the record because I’m trying to go at the moment for, er, citizenship in New Zealand, I want to emigrate.
Pepe: Oh do you.
Smith: So I don’t need this on my records, so I don’t need a charge.
Pepe: Right. The reason for the delay is the fact that when any person is arrested, all the officers concerned have to make notes about exactly what did occur, and later on I’ll show you those notes so that you are exactly clear as to what is being alleged against you.
Smith: Right.
Pepe: Ok, um. Basically, have you any questions of me first of all?
Smith: Well, I mean, I don’t know, you mentioned the charge, I don’t know any, what evidence is being presented against me.
Pepe: Right.
Smith: Or what I’ve supposed to have done.
Pepe: Right.
Smith: Why wasn’t this, didn’t come up before, I mean it’s never … I think the reason is because I’ve been after a job.
Pepe: This has taken you completely by surprise?
Smith: Yes it has. I’ve been after a job for, um, quite a high level job in Ferranti at Milton Keynes, I know they were interested in me.
Pepe: Right
Smith: People, people.
Pepe: What do you do?
Smith: I’m a quality assurance engineer.
Pepe: O, right, yeah.
Nicholson: Could you explain what that work deals with?
Smith: The work deals with, um, investigating problems in a company’s quality assurance system. I’m an auditor mainly, I travel around different departments discussing, um, administrative details with people about how they keep records, how they organise their project management, and that sort of thing. It is more management of, um, the projects rather than technical details.
Nicholson: Is this any particular, is this with any company you perform that?
Smith: ... sorry , I can perform that in any company?
Nicholson: You perform that in any company?
Smith: It’s quite a well sought after, uh, discipline.
Nicholson: This is a Quality Assurance …?
Smith: Well, auditor/engineer. I mean, I’m specialising in auditing, which means that I’ve had to pass an exam, and I’m only a couple of audits off being accredited as an official auditor, so that I could work within a company that gives accreditation to quality systems, such as BS5750, etc.
Nicholson: I take it you’ve got qualifications?
Smith: Yeah. No, I’ve been made redundant. I mean, that was a problem. I guess this is what this has come out of. I was made redundant, which happened a week ago yesterday.
Nicholson: You are working for whom then?
Smith: For Hirst Research Centre, which is in Wembley.
Nicholson: What do they deal with?
Smith: They deal mainly with research for the G.E.C., into materials and a bit of chemistry, and semi-conductors, which has now gone more or less. It’s a mixture of projects and I wouldn’t like to say they specialise in anything, it’s very, um ...
Nicholson: Can I come back and remind you, and really the purpose of this interview was to take you from the time of your arrest, up to the time of your arrival at the police station, and for you to look at the notes that we have compiled since that time.
Smith: That’s not helping me, is it?
Nicholson: Well, what I really want you to do is look at these first. Let’s get this out of the way ...
Smith: Ok, look, I was walking down the road, I don’t know which of you shouted out the window, “are you Michael Smith” - I said “yes”. Why shouldn’t I say yes? Next thing I know, somebody’s trying to man-handle me and put handcuffs on me. I didn’t know if you were police or not. I mean, there’s no marked car.
Pepe: What were you doing immediately ... Where have you just ...?
Smith: I’d just been down to the shop to, er, get a newspaper.
Pepe: Yeah.
Smith: I was walking back.
Nicholson: What, you’d just left home?
Smith: Yeah I’d left home. I went round the block and, er …
Pepe: So you literally just got up then?
Smith: Yeah, in fact I’d been making love to my wife only minutes before. I mean, she had to go to a back appointment, because she’s got a damaged disc, and she has to go to an osteopath once every 3 months or so, I suppose.
Nicholson: Right.
Smith: And she was a bit late to get out of that, and I said look, hang on, I’m just going to get a paper and, er, I’ll be back in a few minutes.
Nicholson: That’s all you did, you just popped out and …?
Smith: Yeah, I walked around and, er, I came back, and that I thought – well, I’d just catch her, because I see her car was there - I thought well, just say hope it goes well, as I was coming back, and then you guys ...
Nicholson: Right.
Smith: That’s why I didn’t want her to see from the window, because I know she needs to relax before she goes to these back appointments, because it’s bad for her back.
Nicholson: Ok, can I come back to the other point. What we have here are the notes that we made, compiled from the time that we arrested you, from the time I arrested you, from the - I told you why I was arresting you. Do you remember those words?
Smith: I don’t remember exactly which words you used.
Nicholson: Well, what I said to you, …
Smith: It was a bit of a shock.
Nicholson: I was arresting you for communicating classified information to a hostile agency.
Smith: Well, I mean, I don’t know how I’m supposed to answer that.
Nicholson: Ok.
Smith: I don’t even know what you’re even talking about.
Nicholson: I then pointed out to you that that was an offence against the Official Secrets Act
Smith: Yes.
Nicholson: And then I cautioned you.
Smith: Ok, well I understand you.
Nicholson: Do you remember that?
Smith: Yeah, I remember that ...
Nicholson: ... You’re not obliged to say anything - and do you remember those words at the time?
Smith: Yes. I remember those words.
Nicholson: Then we seemed to go downhill in our relationship, because ...
Smith: Look. I tell you exactly. I’m a very ...
Nicholson: My assessment was that you were resisting.
Smith: No, I’m quite a determined person. I have to be in my job. It’s not the sort of job you can just go and talk to people, and let them get away with murder on their quality systems. I have to be ...
Pepe: So you’re quite assertive?
Smith: I have to be. I mean it’s my job.
Nicholson: You hire and fire people?
Smith: No, I don’t hire and fire people, but I have to get to the answer that I want, and make people do what I want. That’s my job, and when I’ve got guys coming up to me ...
Pepe: And not doing what you say, I suppose.
Smith: I’m not even given a chance to discuss it with you. I, er, if you come up to me in the street and said “look, we’ve got a problem here, can you come down to the station and discuss it”, I would have just got in the car - but it wasn’t treated like that, you seem to have the impression I was going to run away or something ...
Pepe: I took by your actions, Michael. I mean, we’ve never met before, and as you say, your character is rather assertive, and all the rest of it. Well, you would have run away, that’s why I ...
Smith: Why should I run away? What for? Where am I going to go? I was going home.
Nicholson: The whole point was reinforced on our journey that, um ...
Smith: Well, you know what happened. I play the guitar, and I have to watch my hands.
Pepe: Yeah.
Smith: And you’ve got this bloody thing that’s- it was so tight, that I could feel it on my bones almost. I said, “look, can you release it, because I’m sitting on this”. I said, “can you release it”, or something like that. Because I wasn’t going to jump out of the car, I’m not an idiot.
Nicholson: Can I just draw your attention to ... We’ve been through these notes, um. Sergeant, if you could just tell Michael Smith, what the point that just triggered, just before he started becoming very violent.
Pepe: To me Michael, I was doing your handcuffs – yeah, and sorting them all out, the metal ones, yeah - because you said they were hurting you, and I can see by the, at the moment now, the reddening and all the rest of it, you’ve got quite big wrists. But you turn to me, and the look on your face, whereby you said, “you’re not the police, I know who you are”.
Smith: I thought you were kidnapping me or something. I didn’t know.
Pepe: I know because you shouted.
Smith: Well, who are you, I mean, you’re in an unmarked car. I mean, I just stopped in the street. Remember, I’m just, I hadn’t been up very long. I was a bit tired.
Nicholson: Who did you think we were?
Pepe: Who did you think we were?
Smith: God knows who, but I, this comes back to this job at Milton Keynes. I’ve applied for this job; I’m sure they were considering me; I suppose they won’t
now, I don’t know, because of all this. And I’ve actually seen people outside I thought, who were watching my house, but it’s happened before. I don’t know if it’s the Special Branch, or who they are. But people, I’ve seen people actually looking at my house.
Nicholson: When?
Smith: This was a week ago, two weeks ago.
Nicholson: Is this since you made your application for this job?
Smith: Yes, and that’s why I thought it’s something to so with that, and I thought this has raised some issue, because I had a security problem in the past which I thought I’d got rid of.
Nicholson: What was that related to?
Smith: It was a job that I had - must be 76 to 78 - when I worked for E.M.I. Electronics, and I was working on a very sensitive project there, er, is this, can I talk about things?
Nicholson: Yeah, just talk your way through whatever you think is the cause for it ...
Smith: All this is very relevant, because I think I’ve lived with this problem for a long time. In the early 70’s, after I left university, I got rather interested in left-wing politics, right?
Nicholson: Could you put a degree on that?
Smith: Er, for a short time I was …
Nicholson: It goes all the way from Labour Party to Trotskyists.
Smith: I, because I had friend who was a Yugoslav, and he was quite persuasive, and we used to share a flat for a short time. He talked to me about politics, and made me think about, well, things maybe not as good as they should be, and all this sort of thing. And, after I left university, I thought, well yeah, maybe he’s right, and I got mixed up with a few characters who were in the Communist Party, and I joined the Young Communist League, and I played a role in some of their meetings. It was never serious, from the point of view that I was breaking the law, or doing anything stupid. It was just a phase I went through. I was looking for something I suppose. It’s probably sex actually, because I hadn’t had much success with girlfriends in the early part of my life, and I thought, well it’s a way of meeting people, perhaps doing something a bit different, and it dragged on for 2 or 3 years I think - 74, 75 I left. I got disillusioned with it. It wasn’t what I wanted, and it must have been within a year that I got this job at EMI Electronics. Then I know what happened, I mean, somebody has found through the records that I’d been involved in this, and they suddenly got a shock, because I was working on a very sensitive project and suddenly I, it coincided with, I was looking for a course to do.
I was doing an MSc course. I was looking for a project to do on, um, on this course. It was a part of the course.
Nicholson: What was the general nature of that work that you were doing?
Smith: It was, well, I shouldn’t really discuss it with you, but I don’t know if you’ve been cleared to discuss these things.
Nicholson: I think not.
Smith: I’m not going to say, I’m not going to - if I’m in here for this reason. I’m not going to get involved in any classified ...
Nicholson: Fine, carry on where you were.
Smith: So, I was involved in this project for the best part of 2 years, and suddenly I was looking for this, um, project. I said, “I need to do this project for this MSc course”, and they said, “Oh, you can’t do it here, you have to go to EMI Medical”. And I was given to believe that that was what it was for. I found out afterwards that no, I wasn’t going there for that reason, they’d actually kicked me out. Then I got really, you know, curious and angry about it, because I thought, well, what’s it’s for? Ok, maybe they’d found out about this earlier interest I’d had in left wing politics, but by that time I was married. I had no interest in politics. In fact we were more interested
in the Social Democratic Party, my wife and I - in the early days when that started up. And since then I don’t really give a damn. I mean, honestly, all I’m interested in is what I think I can do for myself, and that’s that.
Nicholson: Ok. Let’s come back to the area that you say, for a few weeks ago, you suspected people were looking at you.
Smith: Well, no, I wouldn’t have gone for the job, honestly, I mean, it was just ...
Nicholson: Was it a sensitive job?
Smith: I think it was ...
Nicholson: You were talking earlier that you were on sensitive work.
Smith: You know what, um, Ferranti’s into military radar systems. I mean, it’s not, I don’t think it is. I mean, who is it going to interest now. There’s no threat from abroad. I can’t see. But anyway, I guess, because I revealed that I’d been, er, I went through this Positive Vetting system in 1980, to try and clear up this mess from the 70’s, and my current job also involved - er, I don’t know what level - a very low level I think of security clearance, because I wasn’t
really doing anything secret, and I just applied for this job, because it had been offered to me as an interview, for Ferranti. I went along and filled in the questionnaire, a security questionnaire. Next thing I know, I was sure that somebody was watching the house, and maybe it’s - I’m paranoid - I don’t know.
Nicholson: What was the level of security clearance required for that job that you, the one ...?
Smith: The one I just left?
Nicholson: No. Yes, the one that you say that prompted these persons to start looking at you, or what you believe.
Smith: I don’t know, I mean ...
Nicholson: The one you’re going to.
Smith: Well, the one I was going to was, er, I wouldn’t say it was top level. I mean, I think radar systems are fairly well known.
Nicholson: You’ve had previous security clearance?
Smith: Yes, I mean, for the job I was doing.
Nicholson: Do you know up to what level?
Smith: I think it was quite low level. I don’t think ...
Nicholson: Always? You’ve never had a very high clearance?
Smith: No, I must have had when I was working at EMI Electronics, because ...
Nicholson: And would you have needed the same level for this job, that you were going for?
Smith: I don’t think so.
Nicholson: But you think, that as a result of that application that you’ve last made, this prompted you to be looked at, in ...?
Smith: Well, it’s all happened so suddenly. I mean, I was going along fine. I mean, the wife. I was saying my wife and I have been considering going to New Zealand, because actually I’m sick of the way this country has gone. I mean it, the unemployment. I mean, I’ve been, the second time I’ve been made redundant in 6 or 7 years, and I really don’t want to spend my life like this. I thought New Zealand would really give us a fresh start. We’ve made all the opening, er, sort of moves, you know.
Nicholson: Had you employment set up?
Smith: I’ve got a possible job. I’m going for an interview in September, with a guy who’s coming over, visiting this country.
Nicholson: Who’s that with?
Smith: It’s with an organisation called TELARC, which is an auditing organisation. I’m ideally suited to that job, I think, and I’ve got a good chance of getting it. I’ll go, and I’ll have a new life there.
Nicholson: Can we come back to this ...
Smith: This job at Ferranti. I don’t think I would have taken it, if they’d offered it. That’s the annoying thing.
Nicholson: You mentioned at first, that you had a Yugoslav friend. Do you think he was the cause of your problems?
Smith: I don’t know. He lives in this country now, somewhere.
Nicholson: Does he now, Ok. Right, let’s go back to a few weeks ago. You say you saw persons.
Smith: Well I thought, I mean, ... I said to ...
Nicholson: Give us an approximation of the circumstances. Was it at work, was it at home ...?
Smith: I said to my wife. I was looking out of the window, cooking I think. I looked out of the window, saw this guy sort of wandering around. He looked like he didn’t know where he was going. But he kept coming back. A couple of times he went past my door.
Pepe: When was this?
Smith: I don’t know. This was, er, this was, let’s think.
Must have been 2 weeks ago. I really can’t say when it was. It was early evening, about 8 o’clock. It was 8 o’clock, because I remember.
Pepe: About 2 weeks ago?
Smith: Yeah, I think.
Nicholson: What did he look like to you?
Smith: He just looked like, um, I’d say about 50, rather grey looking sort of person, with a grey suit on.
Nicholson: Was it the one instance?
Smith: Well that’s the only time I can remember seeing him, yeah.
Nicholson: What about other. You say that as a result of things that you’ve seen.
Smith: Well, I’m a good neighbour. If I see anything going on outside, that I think’s a bit, you know, untoward, I make a comment. In fact, I know what happened back in ‘77, when they were investigating this earlier left-wing interest I’d had. It must have been, they, um, they are Special Branch I suppose. A guy knocked on the door and he said, “Look, we’re investigating this crime. It’s a theft of antiques in Kent”. And I thought, “who the fuck do I know in Kent”. I didn’t know anybody in Kent. So I talked to this guy for a bit, and I thought bloody, he’s casing the joint. He’s a burglar, you know. He just waved this bit of green card at me. So I went straight down to the police station
and I said, “look, there’s somebody doing something”. You know. They showed me one of these badges. I said, “well I don’t think it was like that”. But then, when I went for this, um, Positive Vetting, they pulled out a thing like a bloody telephone directory, full of all my conversations on the phone.
Nicholson: What year was this?
Smith: 1980. I thought, “what are these people playing at”. I mean, what are they looking at me for. I mean, I said to this, um, guy, “look, ask me any questions you like”. I mean, what’s he trying to play at. I mean, I’m not trying to hide anything, but ...
Nicholson: You told them then, that you were a member of the Communist Party?
Smith: Yeah, well they, I was trying to keep it quiet. I ...
Nicholson: Had you ever previously said that you were not then?
Smith: Well I had. Yes, I was trying to hide it. But that was for my own benefit, I thought. I don’t want to
get involved in losing my job, or being at risk. I thought, “if they don’t know about it, why should I say anything”. And that’s the last time I’ll be untruthful about it, because I can’t see the point in covering up something.
Nicholson: So you saw this man walking around, and you say you’re a good neighbour. Who did you talk to about that?
Smith: Well just the wife. I mean, he wandered off.
Nicholson: You didn’t speak to your neighbours about it then?
Smith: Well, I said to my wife. No, no, not the neighbours, but ...
Nicholson: Did you go to the police?
Smith: It wasn’t that. It didn’t look that serious.
Nicholson: Anything else that you saw in the last few weeks, that made you particularly uncomfortable?
Smith: Well, I can’t say, honestly I can’t say. I mean, I’ve been quite happy. Because leaving my last job has been a bit horrendous to me. I mean, I had a lot of good friends there, and I intend to keep in touch with them now I’ve left. But yeah, I’ve been going through a lot of trauma
with that. I’ve been trying to get a job, and the one - I’ve got a temporary job that starts this coming Monday - that’s the only thing I’ve got that’s definite, and I think, well, that 3 month job is going to keep me ticking over until I’ve got, um, a permanent job, or it may just see me up until the time I go to New Zealand, if I definitely go. So, I’ve gone through a bad patch, and I didn’t need all this.
Nicholson: Ok, can we ask you to read through these notes. They are the account of the circumstances, from the time of your arrest, to the time of your arrival at the police station. Could you read through them and say, you’re signing to say you’ve seen them, not necessarily that you agree with them. Do you understand?
Smith: I didn’t know that you had actually read them out.
Pepe: Well, what I want also is that, you’re not going to rip them up, or anything like that. Yeah. Now that you are ...
Smith: I’ve got no interest in being un-cooperative. I want cooperation, and as fast as possible.
Pepe: As you’ve said though, your mood is slightly different, isn’t it, to what it was earlier. This is the first chance we’ve had to sit down together, and for you to read this.
Smith: I’ve got nothing against you guys. I mean, you’re doing your job.
Pepe: Ok. What happens is that the Inspector writes down what you say, when you’ve been arrested. He was doing this in the car. Ok, and, er, if the Inspector would like to read it to you.
Nicholson: You were arrested at 9:38 this morning, and cautioned. You said then, "What’s going on, I don’t want my neighbours to see".
Smith: Well, I was embarrassed. I didn’t know what was going on. I was thinking about other people.
Pepe: Could you endorse that?
Nicholson: Could you endorse that?
Smith: Yeah, but I don’t, I think that was a misleading thing I said. I mean, I didn’t - Ok, you can twist that; you can twist that, and that’s not true.
Pepe: We’re not here to twist.
Nicholson: We’re not here to twist anything. This is why we’re showing it to you.
Smith: See - what the point about that is - I’m standing there thinking, “who are these guys. They’re saying something to me that sounds serious”. I’ve got, my wife’s about to go out to the back man - I don’t want her to see it. I don’t want the neighbours to see it. You know, that’s what worried me. I was shocked about being in this predicament, and other people going to ... Because I don’t like being a spectacle in public. I never have done.
Pepe: That’s what was recorded, and that’s our job, Michael.
Smith: Can I change that and say ...
Nicholson: You can’t change it.
Pepe: You can’t change what’s been said. Make an explanation about it, yeah. To say what you would have meant that to mean. Say on this tape now.
Nicholson: Say now what your explanation would be.
Pepe: Well what did you mean by that? Is that the embarrassment?
Smith: I hate embarrassment. I’ve always said that to my wife, when she embarrasses me in public. It’s the worst thing that could happen to me. I mean, I hate being embarrassed in public.
Nicholson: But you knew we were police officers?
Smith: Well, you said so, but, I mean, I was doubting it, because I couldn’t see a police car anywhere, and I wondered if you really were. You didn’t show me any badge, did you? I don’t remember, did you?.
Nicholson: I was holding it out to you when I approached you.
Smith: Well I didn’t see it.
Pepe: You looked shocked anyway. So ...
Smith: Well I was surprised, because, as I say, I was fast asleep only half an hour earlier, or so.
Pepe: Ok. Well, could you just. I’ve signed there. Ok. Er, the time that this was being shown to me. What I ask is that you sign here, also, Ok, to say that at least you’ve seen it.
Smith: Well how’s this going to be used I don’t like. It makes it sound like I’m embarrassed about the neighbours, because I’ve done something wrong. I mean, it’s not like that at all.
Pepe: So you decline to sign.
Smith: I will certainly. And that’s not because, um, I’m being awkward. It’s because my job is that you get everything exactly right, or you don’t do it at all.
Pepe: So you’re saying that’s not exactly right?
Smith: I might have said it. I think the way it’s written is misleading, because you didn’t ask me to say anything more than that.
Nicholson: I cautioned you.
Smith: Yeah. Well, you know, if you’d said let’s discuss it a bit. I mean, I’m quite open, I’m not trying to hide anything.
Pepe: Well, Ok.
Smith: I’m not going to have it misleading, that I’m embarrassed because the neighbours are going to see it, and I’m embarrassed because I’m being arrested.
Nicholson: Ok, that’s fine.
Smith: Do you know what the reason is?
Pepe: Well, from what that I get there is embarrassment. That’s what I get from that. That is what was said. Ok. I know that to be true. Ok. That’s why I’ve signed it. What we’ll do now, er, we’ll conclude this interview, um. What we’ll do, we’ll go in the Custody Office, which is downstairs, and you can read through our notes in the presence of us and the Custody Officer. Um, what will happen then, er, you will be re-interviewed by an officer who is in charge of us, about this, and, er, hopefully, this matter can be resolved as quickly as possible.
Smith: Well, as soon as possible, ’cause I’ve got to start that job on Monday and ...
Pepe: I do ask you if you can keep calm. Ok. Don’t wind yourself up, as you did before.
Smith: I am calm. I think I am calm, now. But I’m on the edge, because I’m meant to go to Sainsbury’s this afternoon. God knows how the cats are going to get fed.
Pepe: Ok. This is a form, which on the corner it says 987. That relates to how you can have access to this tape. Ok.
Smith: Well, I don’t need the tape. Look ...
Nicholson: No, this is what my job is, conducting this. You must listen to this.
Pepe: It is quite important that you do understand it, yeah, that this is a form which will explain how you can get the tape. It’s yours to keep. When I turn the machine off - the tape machine - very shortly, Ok, I will ask you to sign here to endorse this label. One of the tapes will be sealed forever. Ok. So it won’t be opened unless a judge or magistrate orders it to be opened. So it’s a true record that we can all refer to. Ok. Exactly what happened into this room. Ok. Is there anything you wish to add?
Nicholson: Right. I must stress to you, that you were invited at the opening of this interview to have legal, free legal, representation. There will be further interviews. You’ve heard the nature of the offence for which you’ve been arrested. It is a very serious offence. I strongly recommend to you that you have legal representation present.
Smith: But what good’s it going to do me. I don’t want to get involved in some long case. I mean the thing is ...
Nicholson: It does you good. It protects your interests. Your interests must be protected.
Smith: Well solicitors are about spending money, and I don’t want to get involved in it.
Nicholson: Free legal advice. Free At no cost to yourself.
Smith: Ok, Ok. I’ll see somebody if you insist, but I don’t want it to delay the course of this.
Nicholson: No. You are saying now that you would like to.
Smith: Look, Ok, Yeah, I’ll go along with it, because you’re offering it. I’ll go along with it. I don’t want to spend any money. I don’t want to spend a lot of money on this, because I’ve got to save up. So what I want to do is see the solicitor, but as long as it’s not going to cost any time. It’s all, time is the essence.
Pepe: Well, the most important thing is that you are represented. You’ve got somebody here for your interests.
Smith: Yes, I don’t want them to drag it out and say we’re going to go into some long ... I don’t want any long, drawn out ...
Nicholson: No, no, no. It will take as long. The following interviews will take as long as it takes the solicitor to attend this police station.
Smith: Ok. Can you, how long will that take.
Nicholson: And have private representation with you. We will address that point with the Custody Officer, when this interview concludes.
Smith: Ok. Can I see that this guy who’s in a suit, who keeps coming in and saying that he’s going to be in 5 minutes, an hour, or something, and he just never turns up, because he’s the one who ...
Nicholson: Who’s that?
Smith: I don’t know, MacLeod is it? Is he the one? You mentioned, I don’t know, the guy in the suit. He’s got a big ‘heavy’ with him.
Nicholson: The guy in a suit. The blue suit.
Smith: Yeah.
Nicholson: That’s Mr McLeod.
Pepe: That’s Mr MacLeod. Yeah, not the big guy, sorry. No.
Nicholson: Would you like to see Mr McLeod?
Smith: Well, if he’s the one who’s sort of, got me in this mess, then I’d like to see him and sort it out.
Pepe: He’s the officer in charge.
Nicholson: The officer in charge of the investigation.
Smith: All this has been about. Why I’m getting angry is because he won’t talk to me.
Nicholson: Ok.
Pepe: Well he’s not allowed to talk to you Michael, unless it’s in circumstances like this.
Smith: Ok, well, let’s do it.
Pepe: That’s why he would decline to answer any of your questions.
Nicholson: The only point that we needed in this interview, was to establish, er, whether you were prepared to sign, having heard the account, make any comments about it, and to get your representation.
Smith: Ok. My representation, if that’s what you call it, as long as I can see Mr McLeod as soon as possible, and get this mess sorted out.
Nicholson: Right, we will set that all up.
Smith: Because I want to get home. I’ve got things to do.
Pepe: I’ve nothing further to add, and I take it you don’t gentlemen. The time is now 3:30, coming up to 3:31 in the afternoon. This interview is now concluded, and I’ll switch the machine off.